I have just seen a post on the RMC site where a member was talking about going to France to 'fill-in' a water with pellets designed to be eaten by ruminants, pigs, sheep, whatever.

This post horrified me , and I wanted to put a response there but at present seem unable to.

These sorts of pellets ARE NOT designed to be eaten by fish, and could be very harmful to carp, causing digestive problems etc. If 'filled in' as threatened it is a sure-fire way to kill the fishing stone-dead.

If anyone is going to my French lakes and is intending using these sort of pellets just to save a few measly quid then can they leave them at home.
I would urge all other French fishery owners to be vigilant in this respect too.

I would urge all fishery owners paul, French or not!

Is blame partly not to be put upon the shoulders of the bait companies price and pricing strategies though?

After all, if certain people are going to sell certain flatfish pellets (to name but one) at a tenner a kilo when they are under thirty quid a 25kg sack what do you expect?

'Eyes buys'-is a term used a lot in the retail industry, and if people see pellet and they look similar (and sink!)what happens next..........

Besides, according to a recent poll. Only six percent of people buy their bait on a cost basis!

CA

I can't see your problem really paul,

One thing I like about pellets intended for say sheep feed is the fact that they all have a full and comprehensive ingredient list. You will see instantly if the pellets are suitable. My Ewe Nuts are 60% fish meal, with maize gluten, wheat meal, vitamins and minerals. nothing here tells me that this will cause any harm to the fish whatsoever.

You might say they have never been designed for feeding fish, neither where milk proteins, bird foods, dog buscuits, peperammi, luncheon meat, corn, bread etc etc.

If I buy pellets from a main manufacturer, I pay over the odds, I have no idea what's in them and alot of them are actually re-packaged farm animal feed any way.

I think your main problem is with the notion of 'filling in'
If someone was to fill the place in on a cheap ready made boilie consisting of semolina, ground rice, maize meal, artificial flavourings, artificial sweetner and preservatives would you have a problem with that?

Singy

I don't think you can blame the big bait companies for irresponsible bait use, Olly.
It's like saying Dynamite Baits are responsible for people buying bird nuts.

The big companies are wholesalers and buy from manufacturers adding a margin of profit to cover their costs. Then they sell onto the retailer who then also needs a mark-up to make a profit. The margins aren't massive, mate, believe me and you have to shift an awful lot to make any meaningful money. The baits provided by bait companies are suitable for fish, which is very important.

If someone goes direct to the manufacturer or wholesaler then of course they can save money etc. Or cutting by buying totally unsuitable and potentially dangerous pellet. I saw the dangers and poor results these pellets bring getting on for 20 years ago!

Singy, ask any manufacturer of these pellets and they will tell you in no uncertain terms that they are not suitable for cyprinids. Carp do not possess a stomach mate, and their healthy dietary requirements are entirely different from sheep, pigs, horses etc.

I feed my carp on aquaculture pellets and on the sack it says 'Not suitable for ruminants or farm animals.'

If you have koi, feed them on it extensively and watch what happens. Then go back to the manufacturer with your complaints..

It's irresponsible to promote them, mate.

I saw them first in use by one of Trotters (Famous 5) mates Andy Wilkes on Hawk many moons ago. They were a total fishing disaster...

"Carp do not possess a stomach mate, and their healthy dietary requirements are entirely different from sheep, pigs, horses etc. "

You are right there Paul

But

I've had alot of succes with a ground down dog biscuit as the main base for my boilie. Surely dog food is not suitable for carp, How about vitalin.

Birdfood ingredients? Why do we feed them surely they are made for birds

Why do we feed them milk proteins that are extremely dificult to digest?

Why are the fishmeals I use in my boilies different from the fishmeals in my pellets?

Why are my pellets re-packaged by a bait manufacturer and sold as carp feed? (we use the same supplier)

Can you explain total fishing disaster to me?

Paul, perhaps you could talk to Big Bill and find out if there actually is any difference in Maize Gluten Straights at £4.50 for 25kg and Nutrabaits CSL Pellets at £3 whatever a KG. I think people know how much they have been ripped off in the past and are now prepared to look around and miss out the Bait barrons. It has almost gone full circle back to when there were no bait companies. I totally agree though as I don't think 'Fillin it in' with any food stuff would be good for the fishing. As for the price of Nutrabaits Betain !!!!
Harv

My maize gluten pellets certainly look and smell the same as the Richworth CSL pellets, and I've caught more on them too.

'I don't think you can blame the big bait companies for irresponsible bait use, Olly. ' - er, I did say partly, how many parts is open to debate though!

However, nearly all animal food stuffs come with a reccomended daily dosage per kilo of animal, why not carp pellets? (Education not condemnation!)

I think we are all fairly aware of the margins involed with the logistics of getting items onto the market, but the cost margin on bait is surely their to balance the marketing costs is it not? Besides, economies of scale dictate that they must save even more on their bulk purchases helping to cover their 'wholesalers' costs.

And fair enough, animal feed stuffs aren't aimed at fish, but then again certain caseins are aimed at glue! But if it's in a 'carp' formulated bait it's ok.

If the bait companies were a bit more open and perhaps didn't insult the anglers intelligence for a change, printed sell by dates etc, then perhaps customers would respond to them.

Think I will be sticking with my non-fish ingredient manufacured bait though :-)

CA

Think I am with Singy on this one. I have been using similar pellets on my local and have seen no ill effects, likewise I looked at the content of the pellets and they contain nothing that I have not used as a particle based mix.

Filling in a water is another matter, if said person is putting an "extreme" amount of them in then this can do no good for the water quality. But is this not the same for feeding 25 kilos of bolies over a weekend??????????????

I do understand your concerns about these being "untested" , but isnt this a similar err of caution when high protien baits, dairy feeds etc came on to the carp fishing scene. After all we now understand that boilies arent bad for carp? or are they?????

I would realy like to see any comments from Nutrabaits hand on heart stating that they make, order, are supplied by someone who makes their pellets that DO NOT CONTAIN any ingredients that can not be used for ruminant feeds.

Ps. dont intend on filling in an unamed french water in the next few weeks.

I'm the person who posted this subject on RMC this morning, and after reading Paul Selmans comments I would like to add my bit.

BTW heres what I posted:
I met an angler at my local lake last week who used to be a farmer and said that most animal feeds (pig pellets,cow cake,chicken mash etc...) are perfectly fine for fish, (they're all animals after all)
I'm off to France this weekend and want to fill it in, so I just wanted to ask you guys if anyone has used pig/horse pellets.

Cheers

Having Carp fished for 16 years I know a thing or two but, what with this being my first French trip and having a 10 acre lake to go at with over 1000 almost virgin fish I want quantity of bait not quality.
Not being an expert on Pellets (except knowing that we get robbed blind my bait companies) I posted this comment to get some much needed advice.
I am not naive enough however Paul to "fill in" a lake (and by filling in I mean 50-70 KG in 1 week (I'm expecting over 100 fish) with cheap crap I know nothing about.
Even if 100 people had come on and raved about these pellets I would still have researched the ingredients.
I understand your concern Paul but surely we have all been feeding our fish unhealthy baits for years??

Rich

These Maize Gluten pellets sound the dogs, anyone know where I can get some from within 20-30 miles of Bromley, Kent??

Cheers

What concerns me as someone who is responsible for the welfare of some extremely valuable carp both in the UK and France, would be the widespread use of pellets which are not designed for fish diets at all.

Singy above describes the make up of his pellets as 60% fishmeal. That is extremely high in fishmeal content. What do we mean by fishmeal? For the sorts of prices these pellets are being sold for then you are probably looking at industrial grade fishmeal or extremely low grade meals, the left overs from whatever crop of fish is processedat high temperatures to produce a workable meal.

You won't be looking at capelin, sardine, anchovy, herring meal, white and pink meals etc, you'll be looking very much at the lower end - the Fleetwood sack 'specials'. In fishmeal baits sold by reputable bait companies they tend to use the higher grade meals.

In all probability, the fishmeals used in animal pellets will be largely indigestible to carp as will certainly be the maize gluten that is used as a binder. At the very least, widespread use will cause discomfort to fish, and they will gain no nutritional benefit whatsoever.

I understand in many animal/bovine/horse feed pellets the oil/lipid content is very low, whereas in aquaculture pellets they have to be higher enabling a higher B.V.

There are a lot of myths above. Milk proteins are hard to digest. Rubbish. It depends on type, grade and other ingredients used in the mix. Olly talks about casein being used to produce glue, he is talking about industrial casein not food grade casein.

Lancs, these pellets are not untested. I first saw them in use at Hawk Lake circa.1983

Trotter was then supplying a full-time angler, Andy Wilkes, with pig pellets from his farm. Andy used them in large quantities and caught comparatively very,very few fish on them. In fact, eventually, he resorted to using peanuts again to get any takes at all.

To make matters worse for those fishing the lake, wherever the pig pellets had been introduced - and they took some time to break down - the fish just stopped frequenting the areas. At the time we believed that once the fish had experienced the discomfort caused by eating the pellets, they just would not go near them.

If tuppeny halfpenny bait companies are re-packaged ruminant animal feed instead of pellets designed for fish/aquaculture then they are acting irresponsibly in my view.

As anglers we owe a duty to the fish we catch not to feed them baits which could potentially do them harm, and I do think that these pellets are not fish-friendly.

I will certainly not be allowing such baits on the waters I am responsible for if I am in a position to prevent their use.

Rich31,
something i've learned recently is that Maize is high in yeast so fills carp up quickly,so i won't recommend using alot of those pellet's.
*scott*

Paul,
aren't those CSL pellet's for animal's?
*scott*

The ones I used have been developed for fish diets, not animal/ruminant diets.
That's also why they cost more.

Cost u.............yea right,u get em free!
;-)
*scott*

p.s. what the difference in the ingrediance?

So Paul you don't use Nutrabaits CSL Pellets then ?

If the pellets Paul uses were made for fish then he certainly does not use nutrabaits CSL pellets

My 'CSL' AKA maize Gluten pellets break down in 5 mins or so and the carp in my pond love em

Look and smell exactly the same as Nutrabaits ones. And if nutrabaits would give an exact ingredient list I'm pretty sure they would be almost identical.

Paul why are all pellets made for fish feed pelleted in a solid shape (trouties), yet you will find most animal pellets are 'penciled' then snapped into smaller peices just like the nutrabaits CSL?

A few interesting facts about fish meals sold in animal feed.

Since BSE all animal/blood meals are banned in animal feed.
Fish meal must be of very high quality, made in small batches and be of tracable origin.

The fish meal used in farm animal feed is very highly digestible. Why would farmers feed other stuff.

It is very cheap. I've just found 25 kilo of fish meal, Produced in modern hygienic factories using mainly mackerel, anchovy and sardines. Produced in small lots to full traceability., less than £10

Have a chat with the boys from Fin

they know a thing or two about animal feed. they supply the same basic fish meal for use in ruminant feed and aquaculture. Aslong as the angler does not use hormone enhanced feed for carp I can't see there being a problem.

Although growth hormones in our fishmeals could account for the increase in carp sizes over the last 20 years or so.

Singy....Are you suggesting that Paul uses something other than Nutrabaits gear?? Tut, tut, tut, surely that would be compromising his abundant amount of honesty and integrity!!!!

I like the dig! ;-)
*scott*

Mike, what's in B5?
Paul, what's in BFM?

Low temperature fish meals, soluble fish protein, Casein (acid and rennet), Lactalbumin, Calcuim Caseinate, Robin Red, Krill Powder, Crab Meal, Milk fats, Betaine, Crustacean Shell content, Amino Stim, Wheat Germ, egg Albumin (and two products I cannot go into).

I hope that helps you Gazza, although I'm mystified to know what such a question has to do with this thread. Each to their own though, all I can do is answer the question.

Mike...it may have nothing to do with the thread but great answer.

The pellets I have just bought at £4.50 for 25kg contain the following ingredients:
Beet pulp, palm kernel extract, wheatfeed, sunflower extract, rape seed extract, barley, calcium carbonate, sodium chloride, vegetable oil, vitamins and trace elements.
It breaks down to:
Oil 3%, Protein 16%, Fibre 11%, Ash 11.3%, Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E and Selenium.

I find it hard to believe that this is more harmful to fish than large quantities of hemp seed or trout pellets, which contain far too much oil. I would hazard a guess that this is closer to the natural composition of a carp's diet than many of the bait companies' concoctions, most of which contain ingredients that are excreted before they can benefit a carp in any way whatsoever. I think Neville Fickling once wrote that a protein level of around 16%, (this may be coincidence, but I think I am correct), was the optimum level for successful utilisation in carp feed.
As for the "filling in" syndrome, you only have to read Adam Penning's article in this month's Carpworld.
Adam describes how he dropped a couple of markers, then "covered the area with a bit of bait" This consisted of a sack of hemp, which when cooked weighed around 20 kilos, 15 kilos of Hinders trout pellets, two kilos of tigers, and 10 kilos of 10mm and 15mm Monster Pursuit boilies. Now to novice carp anglers, and those who have to live in the real world and buy their own bait, this probably accounts for about half a season's bait budget. He then goes on to say that "the size of the oil slick coming from between my markers was awesome - it looked like the Exxon Valdez had turned over in my swim." How very apt, it's called pollution! I can't help thinking that the bait companies are only too keen to encourage this kind of writing, as it encourages others who should know better to imitate this, thinking that quantity is a valid substitute for skill.
In my view, the bait companies have no reason to complain, as by trying to promote the use of vast quantities of extremely expensive bait, you can hardly blame people who look for a cheaper route, and take these claims of fish-friendly formulas with a pinch of salt.

Paul....your advice given during the CSL Pellet Debate was...
"Use what you are confident with and can afford"
Many anglers no doubt followed that advice....Where is the problem?

Yes I do use Nutrabaits CSL pellets which are produced via maize fermentation and they are perfectly suitable for cyprinids.
These particular pellets are only available to two other companies in the UK and they are far removed and a much higher quality than CSL sheep pellets etc or other very inferior ones.

Singy, if you are buying 25k of fishmeal mate for £10, you are buying very poor quality fishmeal, I would suggest fertilizer grade.

Bill Cottam can't buy good fishmeal for anything like that price, mate - and he buys 400 tons of fishmeal a year, so he would get a good discount!

Peter, those pellets would also be undigestible. Protein content is irrelevant if it can't be utilised by the gut...

sounds to me that someone has been ordered to protect certain commercial interests.
paul where is the proof that maize gluten straits are not as good as the pellets u talk about? you also know that csl liquid is available to sheep farmers at less than 50p a litre is this also no good?
its no good because it is not bought from a bait firm which is complete and utter rubbish

Fair points made throughout.

I would be most worried though if the feed ingredients given to animals that I digest at a later date is far inferior to that which I could buy in a bag of fishfood!

Although, you are what you eat?

CA

Paul,

I've tried not to get to involved in this having already raised the same point as you some while ago regarding excessive baiting with these sort of products. However your last response seemed to me rather, shall we say, curious. "Perfectly suitable for cyprinids" and "only available to two other companies" , doesn't to me indicate that Nutrabaits, a company I incidentally have a lot of respect for and have been a user of their products (although not currently) have designed and tested this bait for carp, but rather have sourced a supplier of a product and exploited it's potential as carp bait, along it seems with at least two other companies. Are Nutrabaits CSL pellets therefore a) not exclusive to Nutrabaits ? b) not originally designed as a carp feed ?

Cy.

They were originally entirely sourced as a carp feed by Bill, when he noticed that when CSL was delivered in liquid form to the factory there was a solidish residue at the bottom of the tank that was very interesting.

Roto, I don't dance to anyone's tune mate, including Nutrabaits.

What I am concerned about is the potential harm caused to carp by the excessive use of cheap pellets which are not intended to be used with fish - full stop.

I will protect the carp I am responsible for from this, and if some of you think it's not an issue then that's for your own consciences. Mine is clear.

Singy-'My 'CSL' AKA maize Gluten pellets break down in 5 mins or so and the carp in my pond love em

Look and smell exactly the same as Nutrabaits ones'

Paul-'I will protect the carp I am responsible for from this'

Distinguishing factor their then?!

Paul,

I'll take that as a no then to both questions then ?

Cy.

Interesting......

Firstly....
Peter.. the optimum protein level for carp, dependent on water temperature is between 22% and 40%.. the upper and lower levels being at the extremes... according to my sources.. as a former avid Koi keeper (before kids.. pond filled in due to dangers) this is also widely recommended and practised in Koi feeds..

Paul... Utilisation of a protein source is wholly governed by the first limiting amino acid, not ultimate protein content...
I know what the first (and second) limiting Amino is in my baits.. do you? Fred Wilton (I don't know him personally) was a great man and started this bait thing, and he may well be streets ahead of anything we are currently on, but I doubt he's stood still... HNV is the way to go..

Back to the subject... Most pellets sold for carp are animal pellets, be they sheep, pigs, calves etc.. The bait companies simply buy them and repackage them for anglers in bright shiny bags, accompanied by a marketing campaign.. I am not an idiot Paul....
As for the price of a fishmeal, it is variable according to season.. I use a LT Herring meal at £15 or so per 25kg.. are you going to argue that Capelin, Anchovy or any of the others are better..I can get Capelin et al for less than that.. It is a meal that when when supplemented with a vegetable (treated) meal, has a FLAA that is minimal.. It is very good.. so is Provimi 66, at £7 or so for 25kg.. It has a far higher BV than most fishmeals used in carp baits.. If big Bill can't buy them cheaper than me, then I suggests he finds a better supplier...
CSL, Halibuts.. it's all a con.. minimal margins.. I don't even want to go there......
I won't even comment on Hemp Pellets....

I don't think that the fact that a pellet is cheap necessarily makes them inferior to one that somebody just happens to have re-packaged and put a huge mark up on. One example of this is with hemp pellets, which are almost entirely made of hemp leaves and fibres, and contain none of the hemp seed which fish find attractive. For all we know, these could even be made as a fuel source for burning. These pellets probably are of nil food value, and completely indigestible.
The ewe nuts are most certainly of a lower food value than some of the specially produced ones, although I question your assertion that they are indigestible. They dissolve to a mush within ten minutes or so, and while they are doing this, release particles which hover above them in an attractive cloud. I would say that their lower food value could almost be said to be beneficial, especially when they are combined with other pellets and particles, as they will keep the fish rooting around on the bottom without over feeding them. I think the truth is probably that they are partly indigestible, but so is weed, and carp eat plenty of that. Apart from anything else, I would have thought that on a water where most people are irresponsibly using baits packed with dubious chemicals and overloaded with oils, a bit of roughage can only be beneficial.

Do you mean hemp pellets that are really cat litter PeteB and also hi betaine pellets that have traces of betaine if any at all !!!

i thought everyone knew of these things....

Hi RAF..
As I said.. I don't want to go there..
Funny though.. isn't it...

Hi Pete..

Think we better be quite....LOL

Quick, tell big Ron!

Pete,

We hear a lot of references to Koi but are they a good physiological model for the carp we fish for ?

Cy.

Well Pete, if you can get such good (and I mean good) gear for those prices then I reckon Big Bill will give you a job tomorrow if you get bored with the acccountancy lifestyle...

Shall I speak to him about your suppliers...

As for the discussion between us that could follow then I suggest we debate this in the Carp - not here - as that would be the most appropriate medium for what will be a very heavy discourse.....

Protein utilisation/conversion is governed by what the enzymes in the gut can break down....

Mr Yates, koi carp are exactly the same species - Cyprinus Carpio.

Paul,

You mean the forum most of us on here have no access to ?

Cy.

Very sensible suggestion for so late at night...

Paul,

You mean like a poodle is the same as a great dane ?

Come on you know what I mean, they have been breed selectively so far aware from the original species is the comparision still valid ? Even though the classification experts might not regognise them as a distinct species.

Cy.

Mr Sharpe with regard to Nutrabaits Hemp seed pellets I can tell you categoriclly that the pellets were exactly the same as the Starmer ones they were produced by a British Co when I spoke to them they said they had an exclusive deal with both Companies's the residue from Hemp fibre production then the by-product from horse bedding I.E. not suitable for use as horse bedding.No seed included except some which may not have been exstracted.AS you say leaves twigs and dust absolute [censored]!I was offered this product from a 3rd party for £170/tonne that was at least £120 to expensive for a filler in animal feed.
There is how ever the residual cake from the production of Hemp oil for the Body Shop and the like and this is available from certain companies.It is apprxomatly 9% oil(36% in whole seed) and over40% crude protein,
THis demonstrates what utter GARBAGE Paul has been spouting

No wonder it makes crappy spliffs He He this could be another clasic post that gets us nowhere but will be fun on the way

Hi Paul,
You can tell big Bill about my suppliers, no problems mate.. if it saves him money then that's good... currently £16.25 per 25kg..
Join the RL's again...
Protein utilisation has very little to do with what enzymes can break down.. more to do with what the result of what that breakdown is.... on second thoughts, I agree, let's continue this in The Carp...

Of course I agree with you that each amino acid requirement has to be fullfilled, that's established - but you know some proteins are better than others...

Vegetable proteins are JUST NOT as valuable as animal proteins but I accept that in combination you could arrive at a satisfactory amino profile....you won't find it above though.

Back in work after missing all the fun on this thread

OK I use a ground down propriety brand dry dog food for the bulk of my boilies.

1. I like the course texture of the bait
2. It has a very good balanced food content (for a dog, admittedly)
3. It has vitamins and minerals
4. It has a good essential oil content
5. the carp bloody love it

My second main ingredient is a Fishmeal which is sourced, according to Paul at a ridiculously low price and obviously meant as fertiliser. (actually I get it from Fin and it is aimed at the aquaculture market)

Other ingredient include two milk products which are used in the dairy industry to rear calfs

Maize meal, Green lipped mussel extract and liver powder. FinnStim, egg buscuit, robin red

So as you can see from that list the only ingredients specially produced for the fish is my fishmeal content and the Finnstimm (which is also used in animal feed).

Like most ingredients in our baits (home made and ready prepared) they were originally designed for Human or animal consumption, not for fish.

Please Paul, everyone knows of your association with Nutrabaits. And to be honest I have to take all your posts in this thread with a degree of sceptacism due to your commercial interest.

Now I don't want to get anyone in trouble and I am just stating a tale that was told to me from a reliable source, Allegedly Nutrabaits had a big bust up with their original supplier of CSL Pellets when he found out how much they were selling them from. The guy was not happy that they were making far far more per KG than he was. I'm just telling you what I heard.
I really don't think you can defend the price of baits.
Harv

I also had a conversation with a chemist about N-buytric acid and he was telling me it is dangerous stuff that tends to be kept in a bottle marked with a skull and cross bones !!!
Harv

Jeeese,
Harv`s gone all controversial - I`m not coming fishing with you again, I might get involved in some sort of bait fueled/sponsorship/exorbitant cost punch up,

(CC currently hiding under a bag of maggots and Aldi sweetcorn)

Sorry Chesh, rant over!!!!

Raflee on RMC has just posted the following site, which I think goes a long way to dispel Pauls paranoia on these pellets:

http://www.allenandpage.com/organic.htm

Let me know what you think.....

Rich

I think Singy's bait recipe looks good and will obviously catch fish from just about anywhere, this due to the fact that he has done his 'homework'.

You wil always get anglers who prefer to make their own baits for a number of different reasons, ie personal enjoyment, to cut costs, greater control over the end product ie, size, shape, texture etc, the belief that they can improve upon a proprietory base mix, etc, etc - the list goes on.

On the other hand, I can understand why so many anlgers rely on bait companies to make their baits. Less time in the kitchen equates to more time on the bank, the time factor, no horrible smells around the house etc, etc. The initial hard work has been done by the bait companies, but of course products such as boilies can be labour intensive (approx £2.50/£3.00 per kilo to roll) and such costs obviously have to be passed on.

At the end of the day each angler has their own choice but the above considerations have to be taken into account to gain an understanding of the whole picture.

As for Paul and his association with Nutrabaits, for obvious reasons I can't comment. I've always shared a good relationship with Bill and Skids and believe there's a mutual respect between us and I can't see this changing. I will say this though, reading through this and other threads, Paul has proved that his lack of knowledge when it comes to bait is extremely poor to say the least. Personally speaking, if he used Essential Baits (heaven forbid!) I would definitely find him more of an embarrassment to the company as opposed to a 'helpful consultant'. To suggest that his CSL pellets have been developed for fish is absolutely ludicrous to the extreme!!

Good call Mike

I think all of us on this site are responsible and caring enough to research our baits before putting ANY fishes lives at risk.
As usual with Paul though his main concern is money, I quote his opening post to this thread (which was in response to my post on RMC)

"If anyone is going to my French lakes and is intending using these sort of pellets just to save a few measly quid then can they leave them at home"

Unlike all the "names" in our sport I don't get free bait for plugging my sponsor, nor can I afford £10 per KG for boilies/pellets that I can get for 1/3 of the price, and was merely asking a sensible question to a) save money and more importantly b) ensure the welfare of the fish.

Rich

Nice to see someone being honest about this Mike.
Harv

Nice post mike

The bait I listed does work and work well. I have also used lots of bait/base mixes from the big companies and one of the lakes i'm fishing at the moment is getting the BFM treatment. I do buy base mixes though as I still like to get some semblence of control with what I feed to the fish. But it has been sourced in bulk (60kg of base mix) to reduce the cost to me. It does have quality ingredients as do most basemixes from the big companies and I would have no qualms about using any of them. And quite often do.

One of favorite groundbaits is Chappie dog food used straight from the tin. You certainly wouldn't want to feed this slop to your dogs, but the fish and oil content works very well for the carp.

If I feel a very expensive bait like hi-nu-val would do the business for me I would use it. I have no qualms about paying £8/10 a kilo for a quality bait. It's being told that my pellets could be dangerous for carp while the same things re-packaged and sold as carp bait at a huge mark-up are OK that pi**es me off.

When Paul says that only 2 bait companies buy these CSL pellets from the supplier what Paul fails to realise is that hundreds of farmers are getting the same things for their sheep.

"Paul has proved that his lack of knowledge when it comes to bait is extremely poor to say the least. "
poor lack of knowledge? does this mean he has lots of knowledge

Double negative eh?

One way of saying something without actually saying anything

Errrrrr whatever

Roto...Best keep to splitting enzymes - not hairs! (LOL!)

I have just been told of somewhere that may supply maize gluten straights in 25Kg sacks.Will let everybody know if it comes off.
Heres a thought for you maize gluten and CSL are both by products of maize production so there cant be much difference can there,and after just speaking to a company who actually buy's maize gluten straights from all over the world at wait for it 70-80 pounds a tonne,one of there tech boffins told me that they are made by either compressing with steam or mollasses and only contain miaze gluten,now I cant see any of that is going to damage the carp.
So as far as I see there probably is not a huge amount of difference,if any between pellets marketed as CSL pellets and Maize gluten straights,Now if any bait boff,s or bait companys fancy telling us whats in the CSL pellets so we can compare the list of ingredients and find out once and for all if we are being over charged.But I wont hold my breath waiting for the bait company's to reply because I dont think there will be one.But Please prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For confirmation on all I have posted regarding Nutrabaits ingredients/products ring Bill Cottam on 01709 370990.


Or ring Premier Baits.

By the way, Singy, Nutrabaits CSL pellets are not sold to sheep farmers from the same source

For my views on baits, articles in The Carp since 1986, or Carp Reflections printed in 1997, plus 100's of Carpworlds, Crafty Carpers, ACF etc, but please understand, I have no experience/understanding of bait whatsoever after 40 years of fishing, and of course bow down to the superior knowledge of Mike Wilmott, who as you all know has no commercial interest in carp baits whatsoever.

Joe 32, there is a massive difference!!!!

For gawds sake (and the carps) some of you need to read some basic bait texts, starting with Fred Wilton.

Paul you wrote

"By the way, Singy, Nutrabaits CSL pellets are not sold to sheep farmers from the same source"

you followed this with a smilie, does this mean you were joking?

smilies are a powerful thing, use with care

Singy, Bill has asked me to offer you a job with Nutrabaits, mate.

If you can get 25k of top quality fishmeal for under £10, then he wants you aboard, mate, as an obvious fishmeal expert/broker!

If you can, can you secure him 400 tons of top quality fishmeals (annually) from your mates for the price you have quoted... then you are set up for life mate!

His phone number is on the links section.

As to CSL pellets, ring him if you know any sheep farmers that may be interested, mate!

However, they'll have to pay a bit more than they are used to paying (about 1000% more), but I'm sure the livestock and the eventual consumer will be all the better for it!

Oh dear how much would our lamb chops cost if the farmers were buying from Nutabaits think I would have to go veggy

Glad to see you bow down to my superior bait knowledge Paul - that must have hurt!

Don't despair though, my book will soon be published and contains a massive in-depth chapter on the subject of bait. Ideal for people like yourself who are still trying to grasp the machanics of basic carp bait formulation, right the way through to the more knowledgeable type of angler!

There's even a section on particle use, just in case you ever decide to increase your catch rate!

Still can't help chuckling about your CSL pellets being formulated for fish ... Lol, Lol, Lol.

I dont mind paying good money for good bait. What I dont like is being fleeced and finding out you can buy the same product for silly money. I bought six tubs of Nutrabaits betaine last season and at £7.95 for 50g it aint cheap. A mate of mine nearly fell in laughing when he showed me an identical product made by Finnfeeds £7.00 for 500g !!!!!!
I understand Mike's reasons on the frozen readymade cost, cause lets be honest rolling baits a pain, but getting ripped off by repackaged stuff is not on.

Rich...are you sure it was an identical product?..Finnfeeds,now Danisco Animal Nutrition,
produce Betaine for Pig and Poultry feed performance but only Finnstim and Aminostim
specifically for aquaculture....I think we can assume that the product sold as Betaine
by Nutrabaits is Finnstim,or its equivalent,and not the animal variety...hence the price
difference. We can assume that...Can't We???

I understand it to be pure Betaine HCI - not Finnstim - which I first used in the early 90's, which not just contains betaine, it contains a number of amino acids which can be added on request, depending on quantity...

If Singy gets Bill.C a good discount will Nutrabaits customers get a good discount or does the price remain unchanged?

I am happy to bow to your superior bait knowledge and if I am wrong will happily issue a complete apology and take back all I have said.
But I'm gonna want a bit more proof than"there is a massive difference"
Going on to your comment about for the sake of the carp, the pellets I am talking about are made of maize gluten and steam or mollasses, now please do correct me but maize is used as a partical, gluten goes into bolie recipes, it cant be the steam that creates a problem as this is only vapour of the liquid that carp actually live in and as for molasses
that is used in a lot of carp baits,as well as uses with in the horse industry and I don’t see to many horses belly up,so I don’t see how any of these products can damage carp.
Your insinuation that I would use something that might damage the carp that I fish for,I find deeply offensive.
Now Paul as you have brought Nutrabaits in to the disscussion,and you have no commercial interest eh!!
Well perhaps you could end this argument once and for all and post a list of ingredients in Nutrabaits CSL pellets and then we would all be able to use bait purposely designed for carp or so we are told.
I see as well in most of your posts you have gone on about quality ingredients,well just a quick point since the BSE outbreak and the subsiquent legislation,all products that go into animal feed must be of high quality and fully traceable so I dont think quality is an issue

OYE SELMAN, NOOO!

Paul do you seriously think that ewe nuts are harmfull to carp just because they hav'nt been specifically made for them?
Haveing read many of your articals on bait over the years I do not belive you think that and you are haveing a laugh.
Virtually all base mixes (ingrediants) and particals where never intended for fish.

Any way Paul you have done a good job keeping your forum going and getting lots of posts on ths subject, are we going to get a "Fishing warehouse forum gets 10 x as many posts as all other carp forums so we are the bestest"

Keep it fishy

Miasma,

The product I got hold of was Betafin S1 (96% Betaine), I sent an Email to their technical guy and you are right there is various grades, the others are used in animal/poultry feeds.

Cheers
Rich

Now lets refresh ourselves on what's been posted here....
Some are arguing that animal pellets are possibly bad for carp.. some are saying not.. some are saying that they are the same thing
Now I don't know about anyone else but hypocrisy comes to mind.. bait companies sell 'flavours' 'sweeteners' and palatants not designed for carp.. no long term tests have ever been done on these products with any fish.. (90% of what anglers use for flavourings are from the food/sweet industry, and in those industries their inclusion level is far below the bait company recommendation) This is a fact.. I buy from sources that bait companies do, it's far cheaper and I get a sell by date on it.. Palatants come from the animal feed industry (Pig, mainly) Sweeteners.. well the levels recommended would be banned from Human food...
All this 'inferior quality' pellet stuff I find very amusing, I have never, ever heard of a CSL pellet being developed for a fish... perhaps someone will enlighten me if this has been done.. then send a sample as I am the FD of a pharmaceuticals co.. I can have this analysed to the n'th degree to ascertain if anyone else has beaten the company to it... I do have varying control samples already
Lets go back to Sell by date, and think of storage... Animal feeds have one and have a temperature range printed on them (generally).. Human food has one and fresh meat/fish is kept in a chiller.. fish bait doesn't, on either count.. Many bait ingredients have limited life and specific storage recommendations.. let's take oils as an example.. how many have been in a tackle shop that was warm (summer).. and a fish oil was on the shelf??? How long had it been there.. is it past its sell by date? Bet you don't know.....
Think I'll leave it at that...
This is not having a go at anyone, just my opinions...

Pete,

More commensense again. Paul's hedged response to my direct questions and the lack of response to my inference from his answers speaks volumes to me. When in a hole it's best to stop digging. It's a shame really, BFM is a great mix, a classic, and although I currently no longer use it I would recommend it to anyone. As I would my current bait, B5, which is also a truely great bait. Neither is cheap but they are quality food baits and I'm happy to pay for that. I don't think though that Paul has done any favours for Nutrabaits here and Nutrabaits are not doing themselves any favours charging the prices they do for CSL pellets or for example betaine or some other products they market.

I've no idea what my first or second limiting amino acid in my bait is Pete but it works for me despite my ignorance and I have a passing interest in bait ingredients, but no interest in being ripped off - by anyone.

Cy.

So we're not allowed to use any bait that hasn't been developed specifically for consumption by fish. Well that rules out bread, luncheon meat and sausage meat for starters, not to mention hemp, beans, nuts, and a whole host of other foodstuffs. I suppose somebody will now try to tell us that we should only use the over-priced luncheon meat that has a bit of dye squirted on it and put in a tin with a picture of a carp on it. And don't anybody start going on about Pesca-bloody-viva.

"So we're not allowed to use any bait that hasn't been developed specifically for consumption by fish. Well that rules out bread, luncheon meat and sausage meat for starters, not to mention hemp, beans, nuts, and a whole host of other foodstuffs",couldn't agree more!!!!

Paul sometimes i don't know why u raise subjects like this,i personally feel it is u who is plugging the bait companies on this site-"Pro Nutrabait's etc etc....."
*scott*

I thought I made it obvious from the start where my interests lie and that is in the welfare of carp - nothing else, and I ask you all to really read my posts again, rather than reading into them other motives.

I own or am responsible for a large number of very valuable carp and it horrifies me to think that they could be subject to the wholesale introduction of totally unsuitable and potentially harmful foodstuffs. None of you appear to have taken on board my experiences with these pellets on Hawk Lake many years ago.
My concern arose from a post on RMC from a guy announcing he was going to a French lake next week to 'fill it in' with totally undigestible ruminant pellets. By the way whoever asked above gluten is totally indigestible to cyprinids.
That French lake could have been mine.
I was so concerned about this issue affecting the health of the fish and the potential fishing of future clients in the coming weeks, that I contacted my clients I have going out there to check it wasn't them. If it had been I made it clear they were not going and that I would refund their money. Fortunately, it wasn't them, which was of some relief all round.

Perhaps if some of you ran fisheries and owned very valuable and irreplaceable carp you might think twice before feeding them with totally unsuitable dietary pellets just to save your pocket a few bob.

By way of interest, I had a client four weeks ago who introduced £500 worth (yes, £500 worth!) of Activ-8 into the small three acre Birch Lake in the first 3 days of fishing! That killed off the fishing for several days.... I suspect a similar quantity of unsuitable dietary pellets would have seen off a number of pre-spawning carp...

Without wanting to sound boring have you got any evidence for this statement

'gluten is totally indigestible to cyprinids.'

I thought wheat gluten was the binder used by Fred Wilton

thanks

As far as I was aware Wheat Gluten was universally known to be indigestable to carp, by those with even a passing interest in carp baits.

It was included for it's binding qualities and no more.

Axe

OK

Can anybody provide a reference to back this up?

thanks

Any of Tim Paisleys writings on baits... any reputatable bait company....
Don't forget Fred was making his baits in the late 1960's...

I am just asking you all to think. I lived through the peanut thing, and I think the widespread/wholesale use of unsuitable feed pellets could be equally as problematic.

Paul wrote

"I own or am responsible for a large number of very valuable carp and it horrifies me to think that they could be subject to the wholesale introduction of totally unsuitable and potentially harmful foodstuffs"

I remember a post not so long ago where you were suggesting that most of your 'very valuable carp' in the UK had been caught on tigers. Now correct me if I'm wrong, that means you are allowing most of the angler fishing your lake to use something that is of little nutritional value to the carp, can if used prepared inccorectly and used in excessive amounts be very dangerous to the fish.

I think one thing we all agree on is that some food items can be dangerous in excess. Apparently carp can become pre occupied on food items which have very little nutritional value. Although I've never noticed this. (Why can carp over time, recognise a food source that is doing them 'good' and eat it more, yet can't notice when it's doing them 'bad' and eat something else. And the pellets I use are of excellent nutritional value.

I have to stick with my beliefs Paul. I have looked at the ingredient list on the pellets I use, and everything is A OK for fish. The nutritional composition is almost identical to the Koi pellets I have fed my pond fish on in the past. There may well be subtle differences in my pellets compared to Nutrabaits, hinders, richworth etc. But these are minimal and of do detriment to the fish.

Thanks for the job offer Paul, but I doubt Bill could match my salary

The fish meal I procure may not be of the 'super' quality Nutrabaits use in there base mixes and don't get me wrong BFM is the dogs, one of the best mixes ever produced, but it does not outfish my mix, it cost more than twice what my mix costs.
This fish meal i use which costs about £15 not £10 per 25 kilo, is produced for the inclusion in trout pellets etc.

Was BFM originally compiled with 'lower quality' ingredients and feild tested against the same mix but with bloody expensive ingredients? Obviously the fish have expensive tastes if that is the case. I would suggest that the mix if it included my 'cheaper' fish meal would still be as effective and hopefully the savings would be passed onto the consumer.

Lets face Nutrabaits produce some of the finest base mixes available, but they are also some of the most expensive. You don't want to know haw much I paid for my fist 10kilo bucket of Trigga. Why is is now almost half price compared to it's original list price? Is Bill cutting his losses or was he originally making shed loads more money

Why can I get 25 kilo of trout pellets for £20 if the ingredients in these cost more. Surely they are not making a loss Trout pellets have a hell of a lot more money thrown at development and testing than anything that has been produced especially for carp.

Keep this thread alive, I'm loving it

singhy....Fish farming is a business,Trout pellets are therefore geared for optimum
growth levels...high protein,high oil.
Strangely enough,companies that farm carp for the table,and there are some,suggest
lower protein and oil levels are more suitable for carp (39 and 3% respectively)
Paul mentions the peanut experience so no doubt remembers the glugged boily era.
PS Dont mention Tigers...the HNV purists develop a nervous twitch when you do...

I really can't believe that the Nutrabaits CSL Pellets are any different from the Straits ! Pete B would it be possible to prove this for us or would that entail a lot of work ? Mind you who is going to fork out the £3+ for the Nutrabits Pellets !! I can see what your saying Paul but like I mentioned about the Buytric Acid how safe is this stuff? this is a probuct sold by Nutrabaits maybe you could shed some light on this Pete ?
Cheers
Harv

miasma your protein levels are fine for fingerlings but way off the mark for adult or brood fish where the protein levels recommended are between 28-32%. remember we are looking at adult fish here

If I remember rightly, didnt Nutrabaits give bags of CSL pellets away at a Carp society meeting in Warrington ?

A cynical person might suggest that they could afford to do that if they were paying very little for them.....

Roto...not my protein levels mate,but I take your point.I suppose in a way I can see why
HNV advocates belittle things like Sheep Pellets,Vitalin,Bread,Sweetcorn,Tigernuts and
particles in general,to admit that carp actually like eating such materials,and in some
instances show a preference,blows the Nutritional Recognition reasoning out of the water.

These recommended levels of protein, oil and various other substances are the recommended levels for farmed fish that live exclusively on a diet of pellets. I'm not so sure these levels are necessary for fish living in a natural environment.

Anyone remember the articles in Carpworld years ago, (93 ish?) several fish were examined after death, fish were from Harefield from memory ('The Turd' being one), concluded diet consisting of excess fish oils were a contributing factor too their demise, this was early to mid 90's, the back end of the fishmeal / heavily glugged bait era? Was the death of these fish due to the long term effects of one type of bait?

Ads

any creature will have deficiencies if it becomes preoccupied with a food source that lacks the required nourishment for a healthy diet and this why we have a duty as anglers to at least make an attempt to use healthier options when we undertake baiting canpaigns.
i am not speaking against the limited use of tigers, hemp or other similar things but against their overuse which i suspect is the real arguement here.
i dont agree with paul's exclusive use of a certain bait but as a general rule i agree with the hnv approach.
give carp what they need but also trick them with a treat

Well here we go again Paul, there seems to be a number of mis-conceptions in some of your posts, which I would like to draw attention to. In no particular order.

“Perhaps if some of you ran fisheries and owned very valuable and irreplaceable carp you might
twice before feeding them with totally unsuitable dietary pellets just to save your pocket a few bob.”


I would be the first To agree that all carp are valuable and some yes are irreplaceable, but your comment about “totally unsuitable dietary pellets” is wrong, What are you basing your statement on.
You’re own personal opinion or hard eviedence. I have spoken to some one this morning who has informed me that carp may not be able to break down proteins via acid ingestion but certainly do have the enzymes within there gut to break down vegetable proteins, I think you will find that gluten comes into that category so it seems that carp can digest gluten, what do ya know. The source of this information is a highly renowned Koi food producer’s technical director. Now I would imagine that the company in question has put a fair bit of research and money into establishing what carps dietary needs are as they are one of the biggest manufacturers, probably more than most if not all bait companies put into researching their products and if you take a look at Koi feed packaging you will see Gluten as an ingredient.
To save you looking I have included a typical breakdown of Koi food
Protein: 38% Fat: 6% Fibre: 2.25%
Ash: 4.35% Calcium: 1% Moisture: 10%
Ingredients: Anchovy fish, Whole wheat, Soy meal, Alfalfa, Wheat Germ, Spirulina, Gluten Protein, Hydrolysed protein meal, Di-Cal, Vitamin FD, Mineral Mix, Fish Oil, Vitamin C (Stabilised), Choline, AQUAGEN

After speaking to this person, in great detail, I have no doubts at all that the pellets I am planing to use will not be detrimental to the carp in any way. You have to remember the carp that live in lakes will not just eat pellets and will gain nutrition from various other foods they may consume in the lake and there fore as part of there diet these pellets pose no treat to the health of the carp

Now here is a typical breakdown of ruminants feed, the type of pellets most people are considering using. Not a huge difference in the analysis is there.

Ingredients: Barley, maize gluten, barley malt culms, maize distillers, sugar beet, alfalfa, Hi Pro soya meal, cane molasses, linseed pellets, oats, Sopralin (protected Hi Pro soya meal), vitamins and minerals, wheat.
Analysis: Protein 18.0%, Oil 3.5%, Fibre 8.5%, Ash 6.5%.
Minerals and Supplements

These pellets break down in water in approximately 6 ½ minutes.

Both of these products have a full listing of ingredients as well as a typical analysis’s why cant bait firms do this so we know whats in a bait or pellet. Please don’t tell me it’s because they are worried about people stealing their recipe. On all animal feed must be labelled with a ‘statutory statement’ which contains information such as
The name and address of the person who guarantees the statement is accurate (normally the manufacturer. The name and description of the feed, clearly indicating it is a mixture of ingredients. The amount of protein, oil, fibre and ash which is present. The presence of any antioxidants, colour or preservatives. The presence of certain minerals. The amount of certain vitamins and the date up to which they remain present. Batch number/date of manufacture.
Ingredients list in descending order by weight.
My guess would be that then we would know whats in there and would realise we are being ripped off
As well as realising that a vast persentage of what we are sold is not designed for fish as we are told. Does anybody know what CSL was first used for, In the United States, the task was assigned to Moyer, who found that by culturing the Penicillin mold in a culture broth comprising corn steep liquor and lactose, penicillin yields could be increased many fold. This was the first known use of corn steep liquor for growing micro-organisms not exactly fish bait is it!

This the one that gets me, I have to pay for my bait at retail price which I don’t mind as I fully understand the bait companies and tackle shops both have to make a profit. But then to see you saying we are using these pellets”to save our pocket a few bob.” To right we are I don’t get free bait. If you do a little calculation, should be no problem for a teacher, you will see that it’s a bit more than a few quid. I can buy the above pellets for £5.90 per 25Kg and maize gluten straights for £4.50 per 25Kg now Nutrabaits CSL pellets are £18.50 for 5Kg so if I where to buy 25Kg of CSL pellets It’s going to cost me £92.50 slightly more than a few quid, well it certainly is to me.
So there is no doubt in my mind that these pellets are safe to use, and that’s what I’ll be using
In moderation along with bolies and particals, moderation is something that I will agree with you on but I believe that should be the case with all baits we use for carp.
Just one final point Paul would we have heard about the guy who filled the lake in with £500 of bait and killed the fishing if that bait had been Triga, I wonder, please don’t tell us you have no commercial interest because I just don’t believe that.

If it had been Trigga, mate then I would certainly expect the 'slowdown' to have been the same.

Thanks for the post and information, which is very interesting.

It also points to a very significant difference between the two pellets, although it would have been more enlightening to have had the percentage of each ingredient listed too.

The koi pellet has a significant amount of animal protein, as well as hydrolised protein, plus an animal-derived oil/lipid ingredient. The vegetable sources are very digestible i.e. wheatgerm, soya meal, especially as they are incorporated into animal protein and also contains the useful digestive aid, choline.

However, the second pellet designed for sheep etc, has no animal protein content whatsoever, and other than the soya products and the alfalfa meal, the rest of the content the carps gut would struggle to deal with compared to the koi pellet. The lipid content isn't as beneficial as the fish oil either.

Gluten in both is presumably used as a pellet binder, and therefore is neither here or there. I have made it clear above in other posts that carp can break down plant proteins to a degree but animal sources are more manageable to the hosts system ,and that also vegetable/plant ingredients are made more absorbable when used with animal sources.

I know which pellet I'd prefer carp to eat and which would benefit them far better.

Why not ask your koi man if he would recommend the pellet you are using to koi breeders/keepers?

Once again, an interesting post, and thanks for the information.

Paul,
Can we get a breakdown of the Nutrabaits CSL Pellets to judge tham against the straight?
Harv

As I have said Harv, I use them, I don't make 'em.

For clarification, just contact the Nutrabaits staff at the factory.

What I will say is this - and it is my own personal view only. When Bill Cottam tells me that his CSL Pellets are far superior in every respect to many of the others now being used I believe him. I don't know anyone in the carp world who does not trust Bill Cottam 100% plus.

Someone above claimed Nutrabaits gave free CSL pellets away at my own NW CS meetings etc. That's rubbish it was a local, Liverpool-based company.

People seem to want to move off the point here. It is all about carp welfare for me.

A question for you all to ponder on. Would you feed your cat dog food or vice-versa?

Joe

Good post

gluten (maize) is quoted as very digestable in salmonid feeds. It is a good cheap source of protein and is
suggested as a substitute for more expensive fishmeal.

I cannot find a reference for cyprinids though. Obviously
there is a difference between fish farm trout and carp
as well as a different digestive physiology

Dogs can be reared on a vegetarian diet, and can sometimes be cured of long term skin complaints by doing this. Many dogs, and Jack Russels in particular for some reason, seem to greatly prefer some brands of cat food. I'm just saying this to show that things aren't necessarily so straightforward as they might seem.

slightly off main topic

Mike Wilmott listed the publishable ingredients of his B5 mix. There were 3 casein compounds and lactalbumin.

I assume these were to provide the protein element of the mix.

Why is it desirable to have 4 different ingredients to achieve this?

"A question for you all to ponder on. Would you feed your cat dog food or vice-versa?"

Don't talk crap paul

Would you feed your carp birdfood?

colinlucas
A wider amino profile maybe

Agreed Peter - but I made this point to make a MAJOR point.

We give both cats and dogs a different diet - in a sense- but we both serve them with a meat-based, animal protein diet (with the odd bit of this and that thrown in ) and yet your average person recognises that they have different dietary needs.

Minor Difference. The gulf is minor.

Then we say the diet of a warm blooded ruminant and mammal based on vegetable proteins etc (sheep, cows etc) with several stomachs available for slow digestion/absorption, is just as good for a cold blooded non-mammal herbivore in an aquatic environment with a very major tendency towards an animal protein-based diet.

MAJOR difference.

Excuse me...people.

I'll get my coat, which according to the uncharitable, has a bait sponsors ad on the back.

I just care about my carp.

Thanks for that

Is it really that significant though?

So Paul, Birds consume grit to help digest seeds. Hemp Hmmmm

Does this mean we can liquidise Jack Russels for use within a carp bait? Loads of protein in all forms there, including bonemeal.

Axe

What do you think is the main ingredient in active8 Axe?

Ground up actives?

Axe

Guys, this is a serious subject.

If you want to make a joke of it/trivialise it then go elsewhere, including the MODS.

Can I call on you to help me bury carp when some plonker throws 25kg-50kg of unsuitable pig/horse/sheep pellet into my water?

Sure you dont mean 8 ground up actives.

Course you can mate

Just been too serious today.

Any way I'm off looking for a new carp wagon

Hey Paul,calm down,no one is making a joke of the issue,but I dont see the last comments are trivilising the issue.Just having a bit of fun mate!

I'll keep you all informed how my carp in the pond are doing. they've been fed sheep pellets for 6 months now along with their floating pellets, my boilies and anything else I'm trying.

If there is anything they have not eaten in 5 mins it is removed. The only thing I've ever removed has been trigga BTW.

Tight lines this weekend guys

It is not a bit of fun, mate.

In the unlikely event of you ever being placed in a position of looking after the welfare of big carp, you might then get a bit anxious about the wholesale use of potentially harmful feeds being thrown at them....

Peanuts are banned on most waters. I hope farm animal/ruiminant pellets are banned quickly now on the same basis, before carp deaths start to occur.

Yes Paul you can call on me to come and help you bury any carp that are killed by someone throwing in pig/horse or sheep pellets,just so long as you can prove that it was the pellets that killed them,because i dont think it will happen,the original topic was your insistance that these pellets were harmfull,and I'm sorry but I think you are wrong,I believe carp are at far greater risk from various other things that they are likley to encounter.And I also think that if your so worried about YOUR carp then perhaps you should ban all particals because after all they only contain vegetable protein,which according to you are harmfull to carp,and I'm really sorry you are being so perdantic over this issue because i think that if any carp anglers believed therse pellets were harmfull they would stop using them,I for one certainly would.As yet I have not seen one shread of proof from you or anybody else that these pellets if used in resonable quantities will pose any threat to carp.And for god's sake come down from your moral soapbox.Just a point are tigers or hemp allowed on your waters if so please explain what nutrional benefit these are to carp

...twice in 24 hrs Paul...

Trivialising it my arse!

Axe

Interesting that Joe 32 has not replied in detail issues to my post regarding his ewe pellets, just the usual personal abuse which suggests weakness of position...

I have raised the issue.

I am certain that it won't go away and it is just a matter of time before others start to raise concerns, and hopefully/perhaps they can have more influence.

It is clear that whatever I say, there are some who just won't listen and will just continue to personalise the issues, have the usual go at me, and my supposed commercial interests which are not even in my mind on this issue.

Particles such as ALL nuts are banned on the waters I own. I only allow small quanties of hemp, sweetcorn and maize - the latter of which supplements carp pellets fed throughout the winter months.

I don't have the same authority on waters I run on behalf of the owners, but if I had the power the same policy would be followed.

It is my belief that pellets not designed for cyprinids should not be used in carp fishing in the interests of the fish.

It seems whatever I say, I will be shot down.
Such is life.

I have raised the issue, and I am not going to post further on this subject as it is clear I am wasting my time.

I will run my lakes according to my views and knowledge which is not perfect, but has the welfare of the carp in mind above everything else.

My conscience is clear.

Is yours...? I hope so.

I am also disappointed with some of my BCSG colleagues - other than Oliver Gillings, who are in a leading position whether they like it or not, and who have just complicated the issues here for the general reader, and have avoided the point.
Are you blushing, Pete?
Send me the RL, mate, making your points!
You know I left the mag some time ago because I felt I was dominating/having too much to say... well, I need to now, methinks!

These sorts of pellets ARE NOT designed to be eaten by fish, and could be very harmful to carp, causing digestive problems etc. If 'filled in' as threatened it is a sure-fire way to kill the fishing stone-dead.

Right Paul above is you original post.
Now nobody is denying that these pellets are not designed for carp,but do we know that Nutrabaits or Richworth CSL pellets are designed for carp,but there are loads of baits that are not designed for carp Sweetcorn now that one that been going into our waters for a long time any adverse affects NO! I would not feed dog food to a cat but i have fed dog biscuits to carp and muncies any adverse affects NO! And please correct me but did not one of the carp greats use potatoes in the 50's any animal protein in potatoes dont think so any carp die because of it nah.Why because carp get different types of protein from the environment that they live in unlike tank fish which require all there dietary need to be supplied in Koi Pellets because that is the only sorce of food they have unlike lake fish which have a natural lader of animal protien on tap where they live!
In fact how bany bait can you think of that were designed for carp believe me there arn't many

No body is talking about useing these pellets exclusivly but along side bolies and particals and all the natural food in lakes they pose no problem or threat and untill you have got proof to say that these pellets are harming fish
I'll still be useing them

I have not stooped to personal abuse at all,but am more than willing to if you want slanging match.
As far as I was aware this was a forum for people to post their OWN personal opinions which is all I have done and a least I have tried to answer your posts without making it personal.As for my failure to address your comments about ewe pellets I have made my position very clear,and that is that with the information I have available to me,a mere mortal,I can see no dangers to carp stock.
That Information came from somebody whos business is carp nutrition on a world wide scale for fish which can fetch as much as £100,000,and I am far more inclined to take what he is saying onboard than anybody within the carp bait scene,this statement is not ment to offend anyone as i have a great deal of respect for some people in the bait scene .
And the information I received gave me no cause to have any concern for the welfare of the carp I fish for.
At least with my ewe pellets which I hasten to add are not the pellets I will be useing they were put in as an example,as I have said I will be useing maize gluten straights which I know do not pose a threat to any carp.So yes Paul my conscience is clear
Please Paul will you tell me have you ever used particals to feed carp,if so why because they are clearly inferior arn't they!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"It is my belief that pellets not designed for cyprinids should not be used in carp fishing in the interests of the fish"

paul ill quote you a reply from the sparsholt gude to the management of carp fisheries and await your response

"the arguement for banning trout and salmon pellets tends to be based on the theory that their protein and fat levels are too high for carp, and even that the protein is the wrong type. as stated earlier, there is actually no scientific evidence to back this up, and ironically, if the natural food of a carpis anaylised on a 'dry matter' basis (ie with the water content removed), it nutrient composition is much closer to the trout diet than to the carp diet. in fact, either diet will adequately meet the nutritional requirements of carp, but because the trout diet is much more densley packed with both protein and energy the potential growth rate is much faster using the trout diet"
page 163

I am being quite serious in saying that if I was fortunate enough to own a water full of expensive carp, I would be far happier to see people baiting with ewe pellets, which break down into an organic mush within ten minutes or so, than to see them baiting with great quantities of air dried boilies, often containing over doses of oils and additives. I am absolutely amazed that these rock hard baits don't kill far more carp than they already do, and if carp can cope with those, they can certainly deal with ewe pellets. It might be true that ewe pellets aren't a perfect food source, but I would think you would have to dump lorry loads into a water to cause more problems than mass baiting with boilies.

I thought that maize gluten straights some of use are using instead off CSL pellets was the waste product remaining from the process of making CSL. The same as Nutrabaits csl pellets or am I wrong again?

To quote Paul "It is my belief that all pellets not designed for cyprinids should not be used in carp fishing"

Are you still trying to suggest that the CSL pellets you use have been formulated by fish nutritionists for cyprinids? Come on Paul, stop trying to pull the wool (pun intended) over peoples eyes. You accuse people of not taking the issue seriously, but surely, it is you that is having a laugh!

Are we to assume from your comments that you will be banning the use of Tigers at Withy? If not, why?

You really have made a complete fool of yourself over the past few days Paul - what a shame you seem to be the only person who can't see that!

As to your BCSG 'colleagues' deserting you...have you ever stopped to ask yourself why!!!

Mazie gluten straights are a by product of the wet milling of maize and is sold as wet feed for cattle or dried and compressed into pellets with either steam or mollasses to bind mazie gluten together these pellets are then sold for animal feed,Normally the CSL liquid is drawn off during the process as well and sold seperatley as far as I am aware.

This indeed is a very interesting thread.So....
Are we being ripped off by the bait barons?
Are the ewe pellets safe?
Will you all go out and ONLY buy branded pellets?
What`s Ken Townleys opinion?
Answers please....
PS
YOU CAN FEED A DOG CAT FOOD BUT YOU CAN`T FEED A CAT DOG FOOD,IT`LL KILL `EM IN THE END!!!

"I am also disappointed with some of my BCSG colleagues - other than Oliver Gillings, who are in a leading position whether they like it or not, and who have just complicated the issues here for the general reader, and have avoided the point.
Are you blushing, Pete? "

Not at all Paul.. I don't think that I have complicated things.. just made points.. I think that you are insulting the intelligence of most on this board to suggest that they do not understand...

Back to topic... Pellets designed for carp... yeah right... Halibut Marines.. designed for Halibut farming sold as Carp ******* at ten times the price..
Ewe nuts sold as CSL Pellets.. nice markup...

Very little is 'designed' for carp from scratch.. they are not a valuable enough commodity such as Salmon or Trout (or Halibut) to warrant it....most bait is a concoction of things not 'designed' for carp into one we think is...
If I come across a pellet for an animal that will cause physical harm to a carp, believe me, I will shout about it from the rooftops as I am as concerned about carp welfare as you or anyone else is Paul, to suggest otherwise is extremely offensive! To date I have not...
Some Animal pellets are not very nutritious, no problem here.. but you are confusing nutrition and digestability.. Carp eat lots of things that are not nutritious that do them no harm. I would suggest that these pellets would be crushed by the pharyngeneal teeth, passed through the gut and then excreted, resulting in very little benefit to the carp, but NO HARM!! By their nature, pellets are dry, we put them into an aqueous environment where they soften and break down.. how will they harm a carp Paul.. you can get technical here if you like....
Dangers to a carp result from a physical property of a bait (too hard etc), excesses of one particular substance (oils & peanuts) or general toxicity..(flavourings, preservatives ???????)
I haven't avoided the issue.. to make my point absolutely clear, although I think everyone knows what I am on about..

MOST PELLETS SOLD BY BAIT COMPANIES ARE RE-PACKAGED ANIMAL FEED PELLETS....

There may be one or two pellets out there that are made specifically for carp, but they are made from ingredients that were NOT designed for carp, put together in what we think is the most suitable formulation.. and not everyone knows everything...

An example.. Colin recently sent me a paper on treated Soya as a feed for carp.. not our carp, but Indian carp, The methodology was fine, the control was utter rubbiish and the conclusions very suspect, plus it only dealt with fry...

By the way.. all vegetable protein sources are a problem.. they inhibit digestion, hence utilisation, unless heat treated.. and even then there are minor problems..

Back to the point I made in my last post then Paul, If we are to trust bait companies implicitly, can you show me the tests performed and results of prolonged ingestion of Ethyl Alcohol, glycerol, diacetin etc.. and esters such as ethyl hexanoate etc.. at the recommended level...

Carp bait and its usage has many variables.. you appear to be stating that 'bait company' sourced products are the only safe ones.. that is one point I will argue with you for years mate What I am saying is that much of what is sold by the bait companies is the same as what the guys on this thread are sourcing.. to say you need it repackaged to be carp friendly is..........................

Paul, I do not consider myself to be in a leading position.. I simply post on here, more in jest than in serious mode.. I am definitely not high profile (how could I be.. I hardly fish at the moment due to work!!) This is a bit of light relief in the evenings..

As you can see, this is in no way personal, and indeed, I don't think we are very far apart on our views on fish nutrition.. This is, at most a difference of 'opinion'.... I would welcome you on the RL's and maybe we could discuss this in more depth.......

This is my last post on this

And I would suggest Pete, the definative.

Great work mate. Thanks.

Axe

Dai_wa,
we are not being ripped off-these companies have gone to the trouble of sourcing these products and are cashing in on people being lazy!

As for these pellet's,like everyone is saying paul-most of these baits we use are not designed for carp i.e tiger's,bread,maize,vitialin,cat food paste,dog biscuits!
THAT IS THE POINT EVERYONE IS SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*scott*

ooh, i can just picture it now,
Bill Cottam: "Paul,your fired!"
Paul Selman: "but Bill, i was just trying to protect commercial interests,"
nice try Paul!!..... i dont think so!

Sorry Scott I have to disagree with your comments about anglers not being ripped off.Because I am affraid to say it looks like we are.
As you will see I can buy 25Kg of maize gluten straights or ewe nuts for about a fiver and that is without any discount for bulk buying which the bait companies must get.
Now if I go and buy 25Kg csl pellets it's going to cost me
£92.50 at retail price a difference of £87.I do except that these companies have overheads and profit margin to think about,but hey I still think thats a hell of a margin dont you.

Nice lol,yeah I'll be a fly on the wall for that one lol

Cal,
It's all very well 'having a go' at profile anglers, but you've got to remember that they get to be known by catching fish.... Paul is a very good angler with a very good understanding of bait, the fact that there may be a disagreement over a point does not detract from that... There have been many arguments over varying subjects connected with carp, and long may it continue, as by discussion, we learn....

Cal...disgraceful behaviour..you would never find Pete B "having a go"
at a profile angler....

hi Pete, im not having a go at Paul, ive read the posts and given my opinion! it has made fantastic reading, if i knew how to put the icons in text i would do! thats why i P.M Peter Sharpe last night on how to do this, as for catching fish, i do my fair share, i dont publicise it, my perogative, truth is i agree on a lot of what Paul says, but this is a forum, and believe or not i agree with the others on this one!

.... no comment mate.....

I would like to say that even though me and Paul could not agree on this thread as Pete B has said,Paul is a very good angler,he's certainly caught his fair share of fish from some very difficult waters so all credit to him.

show us how to do the winkies! i'm under attack!!!

type 'wink' in between [] square brackets on your keyboard... likewise smile..

thanks Pete thats a lot better, (aahhh)!

Well i must say lads'this has to be the best post iv'e read sincing joining.It would have been nice to see one more reply from paul
Well done all, found it really ,maybe a reply from one of the big bait companies like nutrabaits wouldn't go a miss.

Very, very interesting thread folks.

Going back to "fill the lake in" bit. You will allways get idiots. one day its trout pellets that are over done, the next day its Tiger nuts, ad infineitum.

Unfortunatly we have to fish with them.

Idiots are idiots, it makes no difference if its fish food or a gun. The idiot will not get the blame.


Faze

Personally, I just like a good argument.

Sorry, found it really interesting (THAT SHOULD HAVE SAID)

send a new post in then pete for the attention of nutrabaits

Couldn't have put it better my self,I must agree with DROPBACK about another reply from Paul"It's my ball and nobody else can play with it" Only joking Paul
Come back we all love you really

So do i , yes it works!