Hi All,

Following on from previous lively debate on the subject here is some further evidence to support Raf Lee's argument



Spot the fleshy bit on the floor of the oral cavity of this January Colne Valley 30. Answers on a postcard please.....

Bspit

ps, we may have to wait for the close up until North Western big fish star Andy Jack returns from his weekend on the water, reports just in suggest he's had a right result!

Mark, your picture isn't showing for some reason. Is the link correct?

Is this the pic Mark?
I had to rummage around Andy`s site to find it.

My pond fish have this and they aint seen a hook!got a feeling that maybe this part of the mouth gets the odd hook and looking at that piccy shows no mouth damage whatsoever!does this fish get caught rarely or has it bit imported?

Well thanks for that Mark, all those doubters - you know who you are !!!!!!

this is conclusive proof that carp do indeed have tongues !!!

Also going on from this when a fish takes in an object it rests the object on that part of its mouth - the tongue and the roof of its mouth and tests it you might say, if your getting hookholds in the bottom of the lip then your rigs are working like they should be, but if like a lot of you i suspect you are catching the fish with the hook in the side of the scissors as i call it then it is by pure chance that you have caught that fish...

Carpynik - this is as true blue english fish as you are likely to see anywhere in this country !!!!! take it from me..

Well i'll be most interested to see what anyone has to say on this subject, i feel it could run and run !!!!

Sensible answers and questions only please...


RAFLEE

Can someone fill me in on this one?

I can't find the thread which exposes doubters to this theory/fact, even though I have only been away from the forums for a week.

What's the word?

Axe

RAF...
That's not a tongue, it's a cleft palate... fancy you, a carp god not recognising that!!

Carpynik,

sorry mate I only fish for real ones, I said Colne Valley not Loire Valley ! I am priveleged to be able to fish a quiet syndicate water where the fish are not molested by hoards of incompetant anglers, many of the fish we catch including the old ones are in perfect condition - long may it continue !

The fish has been caught by me twice, by Pete B and Frank Larner in the two seasons I've been fishing the water, it is not a fish that was stocked during the current tenure (5yrs) and there are no records of stockings from the previous tenure. We look after them and they are repaying us by stacking on weight and providing us with excellent sport, that's what it's all about wouldn't you agree ?

I started the thread about Carp Tongues, I think it's a sad reflection on our sport when a decent sized fish is classified an import just because it's in good nick, in fact it's a shite state of affairs !

Bspit BCSG & ECHO

Hi Kev,

That's it mate, clearly showing a tongue of some description, I can't find any reference to tongues in any of my papers or books but I am convinced if it's there it's there for a reason - can anyone out there help on this ?

I'm assuming that Raf Lee is correct in stating that it's there to help trap food items against the roof of the mouth which is covered in taste receptors it may also have a high concentration of them, but it would be interesting to establish it's precise function, someone must have a paper or journal giving details.

Bspit

Ah well...glad I asked!!

Hi Axe,

This one goes back a couple of months at least mate to when we had a fairly in depth look at rigs over a couple of threads started by Pete B.

Raf Lee said Carp had tongues and a few people required proof as they were some what sceptical, some of us on here belong to a group which studies Carp and there are doubtless others with more than a passing interest so when I saw the tongue I thought I'd put it on here in the hope that some interesting discussion would result.

Anyway how's it going over there Axe, caught anything (with a tongue (suspiciously large or otherwise !))? I'll send you a pm as I have some work you may be interested in.

Tightlines

Bspit

Its a tongue PeteB - LOL

the carp holds objects between the Tongue(Cleft Plate my arse), and the roof of its mouth and washes the object by injecting water around the object, anyone ever seen a carp suck in an object along with other objects and everything comes out except a object normally a food item...well thats what it does for sure, there are a couple of papers in circulation - from Japan if im not mistaken that proves this, i just wish i remembered where i found them !!!!! i might have to ask a real Carp god that put me onto the tongue and scientific journals in the first place..

I dont think they call it a tongue in the Paper - LOL

I can also back Mark up and im sure Pete B will when i say they are trully English fish of outstanding condition and are packing on the weight !!! we like that.......and theres another 6 or 7 Known ones as well as that one .....!!!!! and a couple of myths as there always are.....Big light coloured fish must get caught one of these days.......or even the bigger of the two commons.....well im hoping anyway....

As for Carp God I dont think so I'll leave that accolade to someone who deserves it - LOL


RAFLEE

Raf,

I'll have a copy of that when you dig it out please mate, I'm going to leave them alone until they're even bigger mate, you had the one of the ones I wanted on the last week !

What a water though, coming on in leaps and bounds, now it's being fished by decent anglers there are bound to be a few more surprises, and you should see the size of the ones in the other pond - teehee !

Bspit

Raf bloke-oh come on!!! if little frank and craig can catch 'em anyone can!!

Hi RAF,
They're as English as anything bieng paraded as such they're certainly not big imports!!! Can't wait for one of the bigger ones to put in an appearance, it's got to happen with the quality of anglers on there now...
I wouldn't mind a copy of the papers in question myself mate... not sure if 'tongue' is the right description though....

This may not help much, it proves existance but throws doubt on use, but for what its worth here it is....

A History Of Fishes. J R. Norman. 2nd corrected reprint 1960

Chapter VI, page 106, line 18…
The second or hyoid arch has been much less modified, and is not unlike the branchial arches which lie behind it. Its normal function is to provide a support for the tongue, but in most fishes has acquired the secondary task of suspending the mandibular arch from the cranium.

Chapter IX, page 168, line 21….
Commencing with the mouth it may be noted that there is never a protrusible tongue in fishes, this organ serving merely as an organ of taste instead of being used to assist in the mastication of food.


Make of it as you will.

Hi Wannabe,

at last mate, someone else with something constructive to throw into the thread. Excellent stuff mate which makes sense, if there are taste receptors outside the mouth on the fins etc it seems logical that as the concentration of receptors peaks in the roof of the oral cavity that the 'tongue' should play an important role in taste.

Pete,

now that we have established that it exists, why do we need to split hairs, it's a tongue mate. I must confess I had my doubts at first but now we have some scientific proof I'm quite happy to go with it. Will this put extra fish on the bank - if Raf is right then it then it may do (back to hair length again).

Could a bait being trapped between tongue and roof of mouth be the point at which most rigs fail, bearing in mind that a fish will be able to expel the bait much easier at this juncture.

If a fish is feeding confidently on a bait does it bother to taste every item, can they identify a hookbait by taste alone, glugged baits and unwashed hands are an ideal opportunity for them to single one out if they do.

Share some of your expertise with us Pete.

Bspit :-)

lads all clam down now ....lol
will give you all the info on how mr carpy feeds but not in this forum sorry but pm if you wish for a more detailed answer
as to be honest it would go over most peoples head's
quotes from papers makes very hard reading and iam not about to type war and piece on here
regards

I would have thought it would be equally as hard if not harder to type several P.M`s as it would a single reply on here! Feel free to take this as a request for a P.M. I will risk having to read it a few times and then maybe having to get an educated grown up to explain it to me!

Hi Spodder,

now at last we're getting somewhere.

Cheers

Mark

If you have info you can give to further enlighten us on this subject then please do post it on here and not via pm. I for one would be - indeed, am very interested in this thread, although at this stage i have nothing constructive to offer.

Hi Spodder,
Nice to see you back on here....
Wouldn't you say that how a carp feeds is dependent on:
1. What it is feeding on..
2. The medium it is feeding in.. ie: silt etc
3. How much pressure the fish has been subjected to...

A carp feeding in an unpressured, confident situation is vastly different to how we often encounter them.. Not talking how a carp sorts its food either..
We, as carp anglers, have a great influence on how a carp picks up its food..

I agree in essence PeteB, but feel that a carp will APPROACH its feeding habits due to these above points, but will nonetheless feed and clean the object/food item the same in all instances. of course if a carp is feeding on huge masses of daphnia then it just opens up its mouth and swims around so this has to be taken in context.

RAFLEE (Carp God in my own bathroom)

Mark....Could be a specific Genetic modification..Protusible tongues evident in 72%
of carp from Frail Pool when I fished it in the 60's.

Point taken RAF,but I've watched carp hoover up nuts from a hard clay bottom, very little sorting etc.. they just go straight back to the Pharyngeneal teeth.
I think it was Bob Baker who gave Happy and myself a diagram showing this trapping of food items about 5 years ago, interesting, but getting round how a carp approaches a bait is the real problem..
Moving on then, given that a bait has been taken into the mouth and the item is trapped against the roof of the mouth.. how many rigs that have the bait close to the hook function as described?? I would guess at.... none...

Hi all, I've been following this topic with great interest as this topic is something that I knew nothing about.

Today my missus dragged me and the kids around a garden center, which was well boring!!
Anyway, I insisted (in a groveling way) that we should go into the water center next door, which she agreed to and I was able to observe carp feeding for about 20 minutes.

They had about 10 carp (between 10 - 15lbs) in a large tank which was at eye level.
I was able to get within a couple of inches of them feeding, it was great. It put a whole new perspective on feeding for me as I'd only ever seen carp feeding from above.

The 'tongue' was immediately apparent and I then observed them sucking up gravel about 10mm in size.

As the carp sucked, the 'tongue' would drop/lower right down into the base of the mouth. In went the gravel and a lot of dirt. As the carp opened it's mouth to eject the dirt the 'tongue' could be seen right up in the roof of it's mouth.
The carp then ejected the dirt first followed by a second ejection of the peice of gravel.

On the first ejection (when it ejected just dirt) the peice of gravel was not being held in place as the 'tongue' could be seen right up in the roof of it's mouth and the gravel could be seen rolling down forwards/outwards, but was stopped by the fish closing it's mouth before it rolled out.

It was as if the carp was sucking/rolling the peice of gravel to the top or peak (pointed bit on top) of it's 'tongue' to taste it in some way. And with the 'tongue' right up at the top there was no way that the gravel could get past.

I watched two or three carp do this a dozen times or more and the same thing happened each time.
I know that the gravel isn't food, but after ejecting the dirt it seemed to have another 'taste' of the gravel before ejecting it.
Absolutely fascinating!!!

So after watching this I would question the 'holding' of the bait and would say that the 'tongue' is sensory organ and also a physical barrier.
The missus started to drag me away, but I want to go back there and ask if I can feed these fish and take a digital camera.

Incidently, I also watched them turn on their sides and beat/flap a small patch of the gravel with their tail fin, which disturbed the gravel and dirt.

Hi Pete,

None if the Carp has twigged that it can't afford to risk moving, if it has not yet sussed this you are going to get the Rafsters accidental 'scissor' capture.

There are some rigs around at the moment, touted by very high profile, successful anglers that on paper seem to rely on movement or hookbait ejection to provide an initial prick after pick up, they are however very effective or so it would seem.

I suspect you are hinting at a fair degree of separation between hook and bait, in that case you are relying on the fish not detecting that the bait is tethered and taking it to the back of the throat.

I think you are definitely correct in stating that not all fish will feed in the same way, which leads me to form the conclusion that we cannot afford to fish the same rig on all two or three rods. To optimise our chances we have to cater for the confident feeders which move off in search of the next bait as soon as the last one is inside the mouth.

We can now call these 'non accidental captures' as we have designed our end setup to catch these fish. Our other rig can have the necessary seperation to deal with the more experienced fish. Sounds allright in theory I suppose so I hope all the fish are reading this and are ready to behave as I expect them to.

Still if I'm struggling there's allways the 'Jimmy Saville Big Fish Bent Hook Combi Rig' to fall back on eh Rafster. What is the easiest thing for a fish to pick up ?

Gaffer,

glad to see we've got your attention mate those photos would be an excellent addition to this thread - get on it mate this will put extra fish on the bank !

Cheers

Mark

Fascinating stuff for sure gaffer, just one observation,

"As the carp sucked, the 'tongue' would drop/lower right down into the base of the mouth. In went the gravel and a lot of dirt. As the carp opened it's mouth to eject the dirt the 'tongue' could be seen right up in the roof of it's mouth.
The carp then ejected the dirt first followed by a second ejection of the peice of gravel"

"the tongue would drop/lower right down into the base of the mouth", my understanding would be that this would allow the fish to inject the food items/gravel/dirt into its mouth, ok with me so far.

"As the carp opened it's mouth to eject the dirt the 'tongue' could be seen right up in the roof of it's mouth."

i would say that if the tongue is in the roof of the mouth and the mouth had been closed then it COULD have been holding an object between the roof of the mouth and the 'tongue', still with me !!

"The carp then ejected the dirt first followed by a second ejection of the peice of gravel"

by having 2 ejections, i cannot see that all would not have been ejected in the first ejection, but you say that the dirt was ejected on the first ejection,i.e as i have been saying it was CLEANING the gravel or object held between its tongue and roof of the mouth.

On the second ejection the fish eject the offending Gravel as well, which could have been a food item in essence !!!! if it had taken a mouthfull of bait or food when it injected.

You still follow my line of though.

Gaffer what you think....- you was there and i wasnot, but from what you have written it would not be logical for what you have said to happen as i have explain above.

Interesting stuff for sure, if what i have said is infact the way a carp feeds, then look at it this way, the hook would very rarely ever take hold and most times the fish is getting away with it as i suspect happens.

Why not try THE ANCHOR RIG !!!! and the hook instead of either lying flat on the bottom of the mouth or suspended in the space left by the tongue and the roof of the mouth coming together, would leave the hook at an angle to the bottom of the mouth below the tongue. do you now see why the Bent Hook rig was so successfull all those years ago !!!!

of course there are so many variables connected with fishing that this must not be the case all the time and i belive that when you catch a fish in its scissors it really is a bonus fish, furthermore, i cant remember the last time i actually caught a fish with the hook in the scissors, most bottom lip or occasionally TOP of the roof of the mouth, which would go along with my theory of the fish holding the bait between the tongue and the Roof of the mouth, just maybe we are onto something here, which could revolutionise the way we fish or percieve the way that a fish feeds on a food item, but to be honest i cant get my head around the above theory when using say using hemp on the hook, do they still feed like this !!! or do they just inject it all to the back of the throat as the items are too small for holding between roof of mouth and tongue...

Interesting stuff would you not agree...!!!!

Gaffer i respect your findings for sure and am very interested, i am not taking anything away from what you have found, i hope this is clear.


RAFLEE

Hi Mark, this could get very revealing and thought provoking.. Just don't spell it out, leave something to the imagination... thoughts that are not worked for are not well learnt...
I am hinting at separation, only it is combined with a hair configuration that forces the hook up or down.. think stiff!! You know where I'm coming from as we've discussed it a couple of times...
There must be a pivot point there as well.. near to the hook...
It would be good to bear in mind the distances involved from lips to pharyngeneal teeth and to mid way.. far more than any rig I've seen publicised...
I think that it's a positive advantage for the fish to ascertain that the bait is tethered... once it's in its Gob!!! especially if ejection is not an option... my last scissor caught fish was a long time ago.... may cause dropped fish on a small fish water, but once they get over mid doubles or so (dependent on strain) there is no way out...
On that subject.. do people think some rigs work better on large fish rather than small ones.. if so, should the advocation of a rig have a target size? There are some rigs out there that should not be let near a single figure carp!!!
RAF, the anchor rig is effective at aligning the point of the hook at the roof or bottom of the mouth but is totally ineffective if the bait is too close.. remember, the bait is the largest mass on a rig (hopefully) and is the source of ejection (pressure on hookhold) with most rigs...
Gaffer, It's great watching carp feed in an unpressured environment, and they definitely do as you say, although they do hold food items in their mouth.. did you see any 'rubbish' expelled through the gills mate?

Hi all, as the Carp ejected the dirt (on the first ejection) the gravel could be seen tumbling down from the top of the 'tongue', way behind the dirt. Now I'm not saying that the Carp didn't have the bait trapped whilst it's mouth as it was closed at the time and I simply couldn't see.
When the Carp opened it's mouth to eject the dirt on the first ejection it's 'tongue' was definately up in it's mouth and was not holding the gravel.

I was expecting some of the dirt to come out through it's gill's, but suprisingly I never saw any.

I'm only putting into print what I saw and I do understand that they are in a totally different enviourment to which we try and catch them.

Also, the only thing in the tank besides the water and the fish was this half inch deep layer of gravel, so they could've just been bored. Possibly going through the motions of sucking and blowing knowing that the gravel is just that, gravel. With this in mind they wouldn't have had any intention of swallowing the gravel anyway and so there would've been no need to hold on to it, unlike something that they would've wanted to swallow.

To be honest I wish I had not only more time today, but more knowledge on this matter. Even after what you lot had already written on the subject of the 'tongue', it was still suprising and very interesting to see and has totally blown my mind!

Pete,

thought provoking to those prepared to think, don't want to dissappear up our own backsides so it's got to be on here for all to see or there wouldn't be any point in putting it on here in the first place!

The anchor rig, I agree mate but it's far from perfect, it is possible to produce an almost foolproof pivot with a bit of thought on where the most effective pivot point is around a hook.

A good thing for the fish to ascertain a bait is tethered ? I'm not convinced on that one mate and once it's in it's gob can be the point at which it all goes pear shaped for many wonder rigs, what's the hardest thing for a fish to eject ?

Most of my fish are hooked in the bottom lip but increasingly in the roof of the mouth behind the top lip, rigidity has a hand in this I'm sure. I do get the odd scissor caught fish,they tend to be little commons, but regardless of the size of a scissor hooked carp they all count and I'd rather catch them then not.

Rigs for big Carp - Jimmy Saville's got one ! the smaller fish on our place can manage the most sophisticated big fish rigs, so if you could let them know they're not to pick them up the next time your down I'm sure a few people will be very grateful.

Seriously though mate I think it is possible to come up with a hooking arrangement that behaves differently to what the big girls are expecting and that is surely the 'holy grail' in rig performance because they suss them all sooner or later. Jimmy Saville hasn't caught a fifty for over a month now so they may be getting wise to his one allready, he did promote it well though didn't he !

Bait is definitely the heaviest thing on a rig but in contrast, I find sometimes the heavier the better depending on what they're expecting - Ouch!

Gaffer, when are you going back to the garden centre mate ?

Bspit:-)

Very interesting stuff i must say. I have not encountered this tongue in all fish however, but in fish with exeptionally large mouths for their size.
As for hair length and bait size i think there are some very good theories. Most of my winter and early spring fish have been caught using small baits (not always boilies) and long soft hairs (2-3 inches)and small hooks 10-12. I advocate and am an enthsiast of ling or longer hairs esp this time of year.

Hi Mark, i have not used the Anchor rig for about two years, that was a bit of a bum steer im afraid, but it does work for sure, but as you and pete say, its not purfect, the Jimmy Saville rig works a treat as you well know, i have shown it to you i believe, in fact its been about a year since i last caught a fifty, so i better hurry up and catch another soon !!! maybe the water im fishing at the moment might just have one in thats not been caught yet !!!, i look on in interest to what Pete and you are saying regarding stiffness and pivots and the current rig i am using is as stiff as you are liekly to get with a pivot/anti eject element to it, but i will not say anymore than i need to on this subject as when you find a rig that works on some of the hardest waters in the world (Now theres a clue), then you tend to keep it to yourself for a while, Sarty i have been told by a well known angler that a few people have been using 6 inch hairs and doing very well on a variety of waters, yes 6inchs on supple braid !!!

I like these type of threads because it gets the old grey matter working and with the anglers that contribute you are shaw to learn something which can only be a good thing, would love to know what Colne Alone has to contribute...


RAFLEE

Hi Mark..
The easiest thing for a carp to suck up is an unattached bait, the hardest thing to eject is an unattached hook.. it's getting those right that is difficult...The alternative is to make a bait easy to take but near impossible to eject.. relatively easy if you think about distance between hook and bait and where the hair pivots and what it is constructed of.. that's as far as I'll go here on this matter..
I like them to get spooked when the hookbait is in their gob as the harder they try to expel it, the more chance of a good hookhold.. inches inside the mouth.. Bait weight I have never found to be a great variable, but am willing to learn.. bait mass however... density can be a killer...
Jimmy Saville has promoted that rig ad nausiem.. it wasn't that great first time around....
RAF, Are you trying really stiff things...

Rafster (not to be confused with Jimmy Saville),

there is no doubt as to the rigs' effectiveness but is it down to the supposed mechanics or just that the hook behaves differently to what the fish is expecting.

I don't want to draw attention to whatever rig anyone's using, you are as good an angler as I've come across mate so I wonder if your results would be the same, worse or better if you put a different rig in front of the Carp you've caught ?

I would bet that you'd catch just as many, so don't think for a minute that I'm taking the p##s just pointing out in a light hearted way that they'll suss everything after a while and I don't think they necessarily have to get caught to do so......

Bspit:-)

Why is it that 400+ anglers look at this subject and only 20 odd comment... surely there are many more views on this...all views are valid, no-one will shoot you down for an opinion....

Sorry Pete...Cant help but get the impression that the posters on this thread all share
Spodders view of it all going over our heads....
Simple in Mind...Simple in Execution...

Pete I have viewed this topic several times and so have you and all the other contributers; so you can knock off a good number from that 400 mate

Pedantism over.

I have little to say other than the fish I have caught recently have all been hooked 1" inside the mouth in the scissors. Bonus fish? All of them. Pah!

Axe

I don't hold spodders view about it all going over our heads! Perhaps if you are unable to read the Queens English, then yes, maybe!

I wouldn't consider fish hooked in the scissors bonus fish, after all they could be just greedy gets swimming round hoovering everything up. This is often the case on one water I fish and no matter what rig you use a lot of them are hooked in the scissors, and it's not just my rigs but those other anglers are using. The fish in this lake are very mobile and constantly patrol the lake feeding en route so maybe that has something to do with it.
I do think rigs may work differently on different sized fish as I find the larger fish (upper doubles/low twenties) and fish with large mouths are hooked well inside the mouth on my usual braid with 2" hair, especially in another lake. But then again this may be because they feed differently in the lake that contains them as they seem to move in on a bed of feed and stay there untril they are spooked or mop the lot up.

If anyone can read Russian there is a paper on the manipulation of food in carp in which they use x-ray to see what is going on inside the closed mouth, i'll dig out the reference if anyone is interested.

Filthy,

I am inclined to agree with everything you say, and yes I would be extremely interested in the paper you are refering to. Spodder has stated that he will not post the references he has on here because it is over our heads, but may pm them to us. Well to date he has done neither, so I guess we have to accept we are not worthy.

Axe,

greedy fish will mop up bait and I would imagine that none of your captures are accidental, the fish are simply hard on your bait - long may it continue.

Like Pete & RAF, I would love to see more people have an input on here, I must confess I was not totally convinced when RAF first raised the subject of the role of a Carp's tongue in sampling bait, however when I saw evidence that he was right I thought it might be useful to have another look at it.

Miasma,

spodder is the only person claiming this is over our heads, I don't agree so please don't tar me with that one mate, I think you have a lot more to say on the subject so say it, unless of course you also think it's over our heads!

Cheers

Mark

Mark...I apologise to you and others I may have offended with my comments,it was
certainly not my intention.I now realise I wrote in haste and annoyance at another
posters bad manners.

Hi ther stiffy her im new to this game (JUST GOT ON LINE)but if you would like eneything on carp ask my mate simon horton simon.mangion-horton@WANADOO.FR

hi lads
one i dont think its over most but you have to post a whole load of info to relay the subject as it all relative to each other its like the jigsaw drops into place once you get the understanding.

fact mr carp has 12 motions of feeding
so weather hes wild or in a tank its prob all the same look at how we feed it closely all the same unless you sort your food ...lol

and to put a scientific paper into laymens terms is quite a job if your me that is .
the paper much to everyones intrest is in dutch so honest there are very few english translated copies
i can qoute a piece later and lets see how many get on with it

also this thread is about the best in ages on here

the obsevations form the aquarium are very close to being spot on but the gravel can be held against the floor(tounge)
of the mouth and wash/ rinsed /repositioned/spat out(spitting)
or taken back to throat to be eaten if a food item.
so for later please folks
see you later

ok scool time pay atten...lol here go's

subdivions of the headgut :-

oral cavity
buccal cavity
anterior pharynx
posteroir pharynx
esophagus

ORAL CAVITY:-

the oral cavity extends between the lips and the articulations of the lower jaw. Depression of the lower jaws thus lowers the oral floor completely.

the buccal cavity lies between the lower jaw-articulations and the frist branchial slits.the buccal floor is depressed by lowering of the basal hyoids.

the anterior pharynx is bordered by the gill arches and a common synoym reads branchial cavity. it has a muscular roof, the palatal organ. the midventral floor between the archers is covered by amuscular pad,the postlingual organ.


the posterior pharyx lies between pharyngeal teeth and the chewing pad and is often referred to as chewing cavity.
caudally it converges into the narrow esophhagus.
the pyloric sphincter separates the esohagus after distance from wide intestinal bulb.

the opercular cavities connect the anterior pharynx with the exterior of the fish .
they contain the respiratory filaments projecting from the branchial arches.

TWELVE MOVEMENT patterns compose the food processing sequences.


food intake proceeds by particulate feeding or gulping.
selection is effected by different patterns , meanwhile tasting the particles.
it proceeds by Rinsing when fixed particle is flushed with a rostro-caudad flow of water.
closed protrusion may result in REPOSITIONING, BACK-WASHING or RE-COLLECTION of particles.
unwanted particles may be ejected by SPITTING.
transport indicates movement of selected food form the anterior pharynx to the chewing cavity.
loading finally brings the food between teeth and chewing pad.
mastication involves crushing and grinding .
deglutition is the passage of ground food into the digestive tract.


FOOD HANDLING MECANISMS and their LIMITATIONS


post capture feeding behavior divided into buccal manpulation , pharyngeal manipulation and pharyngeal transport in generalized euteleots is at least in cyprinids split into a chain of distinct functional patterns, wherin the buccal, pharyngeal and opercular mechanisms closely interact.
the timing and sequence of protrusion , orobuccal and opercular expansion and the moment of opening of the mouth and opercular-branchiostegal valves allows a high plasticity in movements.

from its feeding ecology and deit the adult carp appears to be an omnivorous fish, feeding at different levels of the water column and the food chain, whenever and where food is available.

SERCH and DECTECION of FOOD

abiotic conditions such as light turbidity of the water as well as the stimuli produced by the food determine which sence organs are involed in dectecion.
at pelagic feeding the carp reacts on and is guided to its food by vision.
size, shape, contrast, colour and motion of prey will further differentiate visaul discrmination and the reactive distance.
a light intensity of 10-1mc marks the lower threshold for effective visual location of food by most fishes.
when vision is poor or the food inactive smell guides the carp by trial and error to the food.
olfactory organs generally have a high sensitivity and are long range chemoreceptors.
at bottom feeding taste is the main detector in serch for food
even some distance from the mouth as taste buds are exposed on barbels and fins and are spread even over the head and general body surface.
the expected role of touch in decting of food has not been demonstrated in the carp, nither by experimental nor by structal data.

here endith the frist lesson as iam now wasted
thanks for waiting

all those in favour of more pls hands up...lol
and i'll then start to go into more detail

yes there is more and it gets heavier
regards john

I'm up for it Jon

John,

nice one matey, here's one critic silenced I can now see why you were perhaps a little reluctant!

Thanks mate.

Cheers

Mark

Me too, that wasn't over my head

Mark....see also WAU Dissertation 1010..... I have to say the high density of club cells
occuring within the orobuccal lining comes as no great surprise and,unlike the author,
I have no doubts as to their function in this area.

see i told you all so !!!!

Just what i was saying !!!


LOL,LOL



On a more serious note, ruly amazing and interesting how complex the feeding mechanisms are of a adult Carp, it just goes to show how little we really know about our quarry !!!!!

But i for one am greatfull spodder for the enlightenment and the sheer time it must have taken you to type that lot in, no wonder you were reluctant....

many thanks and i hope to see more ASAP...


DR RAFSTER...

Thank you and yes please!
Could you also maybe enlarge slightly on the "postlingual organ" and its role in all this?

Very interesting stuff chaps-to all those participants.

Possibly a topic for one of your meetings Mark?

I'll even go and dig out me old rig bin with it's copper wire hairs, lead wire hairs, popped up hairs, hairs longer than hooklinks...........................

Intriguing stuff

May it long continue.

Cheers

Ca

Hi Olly,

that's agreed then mate you can come and do a little presentation / Q&A on rigs and talk us through some of your findings at the June meeting. Bound to be a lively one mate - well volunteered !

Cheers

Mark

A big well done to all posters here best thing I have read in months boys.

I have to agree Stumpy. Certaintly is thought provoking stuff.

Spodder, when can we expect the next installment??

I have only just decided to post on this subject, I admit all this was new to me, and not wanting to post an opinion on something I new very little on I have been just an avid reader.

Well done to every one who has posted.

I must say though that through the feeding behaviours of my carp in the garden pond and in the wild. I was pretty close to how carp find, select and eat food.

How does all this relate to us catching fish? Do we hook more fish as they reject a bait? or as they take a bait in.

hi all
at moment in time iam fairly busy with work so maybe over the weekend .

"How does all this relate to us catching fish? Do we hook more fish as they reject a bait? or as they take a bait in."

Good questions Singy. As far as hooking more fish as they reject a bait, I'm not so sure. I suspect most baited hooks don't make it far back enough in the carps mouth and, are ejected without our ever knowing. This may sound obvious but I think the way to catch more of these fish is to make the hook set without the carp knowing. I know, it does sound obvious.
The question is, how??

Singy,

with some of the rigs out there I believe it to be possible to make a bait very difficult to eject. However what I believe to be the case in 99% of cases with 99% rigs movement of the fish must occur for a hook to take hold.

That is not to say that the rig has to be a 'bolt' type rig but some tension is required to cause the hook to turn and become partially embedded in the mouth. This is where two distinctive rig styles stem from

1) we use a rig which the fish doesn't detect and it moves off giving us the required tension to register a take (depending on the sensitivity of the setup) and partially set the hook.

2) we use a rig that we design in such away as to be impossible to eject, this is very tricky and after a while they will suss anything and I've seen all manner of weird and wonderful contraptions, some of which undoubtedly did work but not I suspect as they were intended and probably because they simply made the hook behave differently to what the fish was expecting once inside the mouth.

I am not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs here just dumping my own thoughts on here for anyone to pick at, I have discussed this topic at some length with a few people recently and the conclusion of the conversations was allways the same - there are a multitude of ways to hook Carp.

The best indication I've had of correct rig choice is catching a fish that gets caught rarely, these are the buggers we really have to think our way round, does anybody out there put together rigs for individual target fish either through guess work based on body shape etc. or through watching their quarry feeding ?

Cheers

Mark

I'm not sure if this is usefull in this discussion but it may help , it's a short piece from A Brief Guide To The Biology of Fish.
Taste,
The fishes sense of taste comes from the taste buds that are located in the mouth of the fish and over it's body. In the mouth taste buds are found on the roof of the mouth and on the gill arches but NOT on the tongue. Externally taste buds are found on fins and in scale - less fish they are found all over the body.

These are my thoughts....

Lets say for arguments sake that a carp injects the bait and the rig, the rig could be of any material and any hook and any bait.

lets say as i believe in most situations that the fish uses the tongue and the roof of its mouth to sample and wash the food item....

Lets say the fish realises that our boilie or food item is not what it should be, i.e. its attached to something which it has learnt to fear or relate to being hooked nd whinched up the bank....

Now this is where it all begins in my eyes, lets face it these fish are pretty cute on many waters, so they have learnt to deal with this millions of times in there lifes and you be suprised how many times they get away with it during the course of a day...

the fish can do various things that it has learnt.

Blow - the power of this is not to be underestimated the force a fish of any size can bring about on a foreign object that it knows is not quite right is astranomical, i have seen fish propel items feet not inches.

Movement - the fish could move backwards or slightly to the side and back off whether this be slowly or bolting is neither here nor there and thus hopefully getting rid of the offending item.


Movement, this i think happens very very rarely, this is what i would call a lucky capture, in the scissors or just inside the lips for instance.

Blowing - this i thing happens 99% of the time, the fish expels the rig at a rate of knots and usually gets rid of the offending item through shear power of epulsion of water using the space in front of its lips as a funnel directing the water through its mouth.

Now on from that an earlier poster said that he saw the fish up close and there was bits of Gravel falling down from the tongue, this could be the fish letting the offending item trickle down to be nearer the front and bottom of the mouth thus if a hook is attached as i think the fish has worked out already through years of practice will exit the mouth with the hook bend facing outwards rather than when it entered the mouth facing forwards....see what i mean when a fish does this action the hook will follow the item and have very little chance of actually getting a grip anywhere in the mouth.!!!

Question: how do we get around this problem !!!!

well various ways we can make it hard for the fish to eject the hook ??? simple really (In theory)

1) STIFF LINKS - fish wise up as mark has said to certain developments after being caught in the rig, that is a fact otherwise we would all be using the same rigs wouldn't we, we are forever looking for the answer or the super rig that will always give us the edge...theres no doubt about it stiff rigs work, but how affective are they from say 2 years ago - not as much i would say...

2) SUPPLE HOOKLINKS (BRAID,NYLON) - they have there day, but i really belive you should only use a supple hooklink if fishing in weed or a bottom that has debris as a stiff link would be an unacceptable presentation, they are soft and supple and a fish may well not feel the hooklink going in, but for sure the fish will be able to get rid of it easier than a stiff link any day.

so where does that leave us, i would say COMBI-LINKS for sure, i know what your thinking, we used to use combi-links years ago or i use a combilink, i use snakebite with a bit stripped back and a loop or tied on or i use 10lb amnesia with a braid combilink on the end....agreed all combi=links to some extent

THE WAY FORWARD (For me anyway), a couple of seasons ago i too used the stifflink and the snakebite with success, but felt somehing was missing there was to much PLAY in the snakebite and not enough STIFFNESS in the snakebite, so started experimenting with different materials amnesia, well worked to a certain extent, but still had to much play in it and no really enough stiffness started using it in 30lb tied to a small ring and a 4 inches of combi-link - silkworm, that worked, but not the finsihed product, i was still getting the feeling that they were ejecting it successfully because it was not stiff enough and too long etc etc, so i saw Tim Paisley's acticle on his rig and as much the same as the rig i had been progressing with slightly different in that he used it longer and mine had a shorter boom also he was using long shank nailers i was not - i was using nash patern 2's. I studied Mr Paisleys rig for ages looking at what made it work so well for him.....i took the small cone sleeve that he slipped over the swivel, that took care of the play from having it tied direct or with a loop, the fish could not move it as it really stayed there STIFF, i managed to locate a material which is as thin as amnesia and looks like Amnesia, but was as stiff as you like and was what i had been looking for, i also started using the longshank nailers in the blow back form with a smnall ring. so i had arrived at what i felt was the ultimate rig for my type of fishing, now i have deliberately left out the length of hooklink, make of hooklink, seperation between nailer and bait etc etc, bacause we all need our edges and i've told you too much already (LOL), you have to test and try like i have for 2 years.

So does it work...- you bet, started using it the start of last season and i have been catching loads, 11 fish over 30+, 2 40's, 1 50, untold other fish all from around 8 different waters in the home counties that on the whole are pressured waters. now that is not being big headed, i am just showing you what the rig has done for me, it has given me supream confidence, that i think is half the battle

The other rig that i have not even been able to use because i am so confident in this one is again a combi-link, with the first six inches being a supple hooklink and the next 3 inches being as stiff as you can get it, think about it and the blowing theory, we are trying o get the fish to not be able to get rid of that hook from the confines of its mouth, it blows and a stiff 3 inch hooklink just will not come out because it may have turned sideways or on the theory of the space behind its lips and the thrust of the water will make the stiff 3 inches of the rig bound arounf in its mouth where supple hooklinks would just come straight back out again......

Now i have so much more and can go into detail on both these rigs and why i feel they work so well, but i have typed so much and taken up so much space that i will only go into the two rigs if you would like me too after we have had some comments from you guys...

Am i talking rubbish or does all that we have been talking about fit in to why these types of rigs work so well, at the moment !!!!!

RAFLEE(tired, of typing and thinking)

This thread just gets better and better don't you think, for those that can be bothered. Fanbloodytastic.

RAF-far too much knowledge given away, I hope your fingers are bleeding and you can type no more!

You have looked at this from your hooklength a great deal we can see. Solving your mental hang ups surrounding the 'tongue' and practically too! Just pick me jaw up.

While your solution is often good in your eyes I often look at my rigs in another light.

Tie 'em up. Hand them to an authentic sceptiacal B*****d and let them rip them to piecies.

The trouble is when developing 'a rig' is the window of oneselves mind. As I presume you are a secret squirrel carp tongue.

We drive ourselves through the mechanics of the feeding fish, blinkered by the desire to develop the 'one step ahead' rig.

What is all this? I often wonder!

What I am trying to say is, people have to redesign their thinking of rigs and fishing situations as I believe that unless you look at them pessimistically you are kidding yourself to a certain degree. When you can pessimistically observe a connotation and say 'what if....' and have a positive answer from your worst possible outcome then the perfect rig may well be achievable for your currant fishing position. Don't be tempted to look on the bright side.

Regarding the crux.

Be interested to see what your hair looks like RAF! Not gonna see it wed, which is a shame.

To me and my why of thinking. I like to manipulate the bait via the hair. I think this is very important, more important then hooklink to some degree.

For example, stiff, combi-links all hinder the bait getting into the fish in the first place, THEN become effective.

Get the bait and hook into the hookable area and we can start talking.

Which, as you, I have written too much for a forum but if it is of interest I could carry on?

Regards

CA

Ah Mr Colnealone,

Believe it or not i did not go into that much details !!!!

the rigs works because when the lead lands on the bottom of the lake bed it gets pushed away from the lead and the flexible part of the rig falls away with it, its hard to tell you on here, you need to see it in person...and the materials that are used and the hair length and the the length of the flexible part, all relevan as i have found out over the past two years of testing, this rig is not purfect by all means, but its something one not man yother people can be bothered to tie up !!! and two it takes confidence to KEEP on using it...

seperation between bend of hook and bait is relevant, length between stiff section and hook is relevant,
length of stiff section relevant,
hook relevant,
the way the rig setles on he bottom also relevant,


As Terry hearn once said "think of your fishing as percentages" every little percentage point towards 100% must be of benefit for sure....

There are so many variables why these two rigs work or dont work - keep on learning and applying those percentage points and it will all come together to produce CONFIDENCE, which we all know = SUCCESS which in turn produces more CONFIDENCE.......

I'll leave you with a thought Colnealone and others, the boom is tied to the swivel and then a sleve is put over the boom and the swivel, could it be that when the carp injects the flexible part AND TAKES IN SOME OF THE BOOM INTO ITS MOUTH that the boom acts in a manner after entering the mouth so as to push the boom into the bottom of the mouth or side and acts like a spring and also keeping the flexible part with the hooklink and bait in the confines of the mouth until it gets a hook hold !!!!

Now that is telling too much !!!!!!!!!

P.S. - i also blank a great deal !!!! LOL

Your rig is as good as you want to make it......

confused i still am.......

RAFLEE

RAF....Majestic posting...one point,I notice you mention a material with the looks
and diameter of Amnesia but "as stiff as you like"
This suggests an infinately variable situation...or have I misread this and your
comments were to be taken in a comparative sense?

Hi Colne,
All this riggy stuff does my head in..... what's wrong with a standard 2.5 inch stiff hair.. surely bait and its application is more important...

P.S. - i also blank a great deal !!!! LOL

No, you just fish to many day sessions! Your the only guy i know fishes a week and says he has done 7 day trips!

Targeter!

Peter, you swine. I know 2 and a half does it for me, and the wife!!!!

Cheers

CA

I only fish every other weekend, Friday night to Sunday morning is the norm for me, i fight the traffic on the M25 on a Fri night to get to the lake and get the last swim, thats me !!!

To correct the typing error it should read, found a material that looks like Amnesia and has the same diameter as Amnesia, but is much stiffer and springier than Amnesia... If you looked both of them you could not tell the difference until you picked them both up....

Hope that answers that question....

p.s. PeteB, in answer to your question, it gets ejected mate......LOL

RAFLEE

Piano wire is better RAF!!!!!!!

Raf,

I agree with everything you say to a degree, but no rig is infallible indefinitely, for a start off not all fish 'suck', therefore a rig relying on x inches of whatever being taken in is dead in the water and will never get in far enough to stay in until it 'finds' a hookhold.

A deep bodied fish has to up end to feed, if as you suspect the fish doesn't move once it picks up the bait (ie doesn't right itself, creating tension) then theoretically any rig with a flexible element can simply fall out if the fish were to open it's mouth when up ended, even if the stiff section is still within the confines of it's mouth the hook ain't because it followed the bait and is facing the wrong way anyway, all the fish has to do is level out again and it's away.

The same fish up ends and gently sucks at a bait that is balanced and on a combi link as you describe, the bait enters the mouth freely as does the hook, the boom section being at a much shallower angle because of the 'hinge' never gets past the top lip, the fish as you say doesn't move but has the luxury of deciding whether he's going to blow the bait out or just let it fall out. Luckily though he forgets himself and levels out creating TENSION now the hook is on the floor of his mouth and as he is deep enough for all the slack to be taken up causing the hook to turn, on hitting the weight of the lead the hook finds a hookhold. He can't seem to exert enough pressure to blow it out after several minutes so he starts to roll around and shake his head giving a textbook Tench bite.

Note that the hook hold is an inch back in the floor of the mouth so the captor congratulates himself on a brilliant choice of rig working exactly as it should on paper. Mental ain't it ?

Take any rig that we think will work in a given way and I guarantee there are several ways in which it won't and probably another couple in which it will that we didn't think of.

Tension still plays a major role in acheiving a hookhold and try as I might to find a way round it I never have found a rig that doesn't require it in some measure. Creating a rig that behave's how we want it to when a fish 'blows' out a hook bait is a doddle (on paper) but I would hate to have to wait long enough for the fish to blow the hook into a hook hold !

We all have our own slant on this subject based on our experiences whilst angling, as I have said I don't necessarily disagree with anything that has been posted in this thread but would like to point our that I don't feel there is a rig out there which is 1) undetectable 2) unejectable 3) everlasting 4) miles ahead of any other rig.

The best rig is the one that works on the day, most often the one that works on the day is the one we have chosen to solve the anging problem which we faced on the day, whatever that may be - that is where the percentages are increased.

I'll finish on this - there are three main factors that lead to suboptimal rig selection - rationalisation, justification and bullshit, what do you think ?

Mark

mark,

I have to disagree with you in regard to some fish not sucking, i think they all suck, how does it get the food item into its mouth in the first place !!!, does the tongue extend out 8 inches and grabs the bait...LOL, sorry could not resist it, every fish sucks, i cant get it in my head how a fish feeds unless it sucks a food object in ???? (Anyone help me with this),

You say the rig will fall out, but how did it get in there in the first place to be able to fall out ???

Also you say that the hook will be facing the wrong way when the fish blows it out, did i forget to mention that there is a blow back rig on the end of the supple part....mark, you are making me give up my secrets....!!

the boom always goes into the mouth because the supple part is only 1.5 inches to hook !!! - more secrets mark.....not good

Also i totally agree with your last comments

"but would like to point our that I don't feel there is a rig out there which is 1) undetectable 2) unejectable 3) everlasting 4) miles ahead of any other rig" - this is so true Mark, we will never ever find all the answers, and i hope we never will either as it would be boring catching every cast would'nt it.....!!!

i dont have all the answers thats for sure, but i have the answers to the questions i have asked myself, if i get the answers, which means i catch more fish, then i dont mind not having the best rig in the world...

The itemns we have alldiscussed i believe is probably only about 1% of what we really know about our quarry, thats we all go and may it ever be so, if i or mark or any of the other contributors have helped anyone else to put more fish on the bank or even to get your head thinking about a way to tackle your water or waters in general, hen this post has been all the more worthwhile (As long as ou dont fish the same waters as me - LOL)

To go on slightly from this interesting subject, after reading all this theory and posts by everyone, i feel that this is wthe type of articles we should be seeing in the likes of the monthly magazines, i dont know about you, but about every 3-6 months we might get 1 really good article out of those magazines, we deserve more dont you think......


RAFLEE

You guys are getting to tech for me now. I think maybe Mirage should have a say

Extremely interesting thread.

Questions of clarification for readers:

1. Have we identified the name of the organ which is being referred to as the 'carp tongue'?

2. If so, has its biological function in the feeding process been established, as I seem to be reading different functions here?

3. Mechanically, what have the writers established about the role of the 'tongue' in the sucking and blowing process.

A word of caution before we proceed.

Let's not overlook the many variables. Are we just seeing the carp here as an individual single organism and therefore placing too much emphasis on the lone feeder?

Don't most carp feed alongside/with other carp?

If this is accepted, competitive feeding would surely have a big impact...

There certainly is a knobbly bit.





A 16lb mirror.

A little different is the catfish tongue?



A 66lb catfish.

Axe

Ive just had a nose through all the papers I have to hand on cyprinids and other fish and have found dozens of latin names and anatomical names for odd parts of fish, but when it comes to the tongue its always the tongue.
There must be another version I guess.

You may find these are worth a look ,
Diversity of Fishes (1997) Gene Helfman, Bruce Collette and Douglas Facey. Blackwell Scientific.

Enviromental Biology of Fish (1995) Malcolm Jobling.
Chapman and Hall.

I think the danger is that by using the term 'tongue', we could understandably fall into the the trap of relating it/ trying to understand it in terms of our own experiences/knowledge of the human tongue.

This may then lead us to assume that the carp 'tongue' possesses qualities it simply can't have due to the severe limitations of the carps brain compared to the human organ - or indeed we may underestimate a dimension of its function for the same reasons.

That's why a scientific/latin term would help me/us to look into this more objectively ...

As far as Im aware they cant talk with it ( humour) and according to the papers I have here they cant taste with it as it dosnt have any taste buds the bulk of these are situated in the roof of the mouth.
I put two books for reference in my last post they may have the answers you are looking for, it's far too late in the day for me to start reading 'heavy material'.

Paul,

You have just thrown in another variable - lol....

I still think that a carp places the said food item between its tongue and the roof of the mouth, now if theres is competetive feeding could it be that the carp tries to get as much in its mouth as possible when feeding in compettition with other carp ???, if so does it still do as i said above and wash the food item between tongue and roof of mouth ????, i think it does, but if its a greedy bugger, then it might just gorge itself and could it be that some fish gorge themselves so much that they get integestion where they are literally passing it through quicker than it normally would and getting unwanted debris in there as well that would not happen with when selective feeding with the tongue and roof of the mouth, another variable....

something i have noticed, out of all the people that must ready this thread with interest only a few seem to want to put there thoughts down, also could it be that most anglers just dont know how a carp feeds full stop... This posses another question, do most of us actually know why we use a particular rig !!!!, i think not !!!, now that is not taking anything away from anybody as i have respect for 99% of anglers, but it makes you wonder how any of us actually catch anything doesn't it, i suppose its like driving a sports car, you know it does 150+ miles an hour but you dont know the mechanics of how it does 150+ miles an hour, and to be honest do you really care !!!!! just enjoy !!!

Also point 2, paul, my view as i have said before is that it uses its tongue to hold the food item between it and the roof of the mouth before washing it, i don think it tastes the food item with its tongue so calling it a tongue could be misleading, i think it already knows what it has taken in before it gets to that stage, there are far more taste receptors around the head and inside the mouth before it gets to the tongue.

Point 3, same as in point 2 holding purpose before washing food item...

as i said when i first posted, this could run and run and long may it do so....

Paul i would be most interested to hear your views on the functionality of the "Tongue", i think i might even right a piece for the next BCSG Magazine and see what the "DR's" of our group come back with - should be interesting.

If i do, i will no doubt let you all know the definative use. unless there is someone out there who can tell us ???

RAFLEE

Rafster,

well you would disagree wouldn't you lol, they don't all suck straight away mate, I have on numerous occasions seen them up end close there lips around a bait without sucking together with various other behaviours both before and after which all seemed to be designed to establish whether or not the bait was tethered before sucking the bait in any further. I hope this helps.

I'll help you further by clarifying that how the bait got there whether by sucking or 'picking' is of no consequence as it can still fall out and it is no secret that a hook from a blow back rig has to be embedded in the fishes mouth for it to work, this requires TENSION.

As for the boom going into the mouth mate read it again, the deep bodied fish described has to up end to feed, the very stiff to very supple 'hinge' upon 'sucking' allows the bait to move freely upwards. The boom being at a much shallower angle and by your own admission very stiff cannot follow the supple section into the mouth.

Where's the beef with that - the rig still worked I was merely pointing out that it worked in a different way to that which you described as well, I'm not here to pick holes in anyones presentations or their confidence in them, just wanted to point out that there are many many variables to consider and there is not one single solution to all of them.

I'm glad you found something in my last post you could agree with even if I disagree that you would ever get bored of catching every cast, especially if I was blanking lol. If you ever find the best rig in the world be sure and post it on here as well mate lol.

As for the magazines - they're there to sell tackle and foreign holidays and assist people who aren't very important in the grand scheme of life to become famous for a nanosecond whilst assisting their sponsors in selling even more tackle and bait. They have to put something between all the adverts. As long as we all remember that we are not being conned, if I buy them it's only to look at the pictures and read some of the stories - would you expect any more from a sun reader? Can't wait until the mag is twice yearly.

Paul,

you're right mate probably a good time to remove head from backside and clarify what we have learnt or allready knew in Rafs' case.

1. from what spodder has taken the trouble to upload the proper name for a Carps' tongue is the Postlingual organ I hope I will be able to confirm this on Thursday (should be an interesting meeting).

2. Main function is to trap food items against roof of mouth (palatial organ) which is covered in taste receptors so taste is one function. Also used to hold food item whilst other debris is expelled from oral cavity prior to mastication (chewing).

3. Answer 2 partially answers this question but the tongue does not appear to contribute to the expansion and contraction of the oral cavity which facilitates sucking and blowing.

You may note that in my last couple of posts I have tried to introduce some of the variables we are likely to encounter when dealing with clued up Carp, if I have been blinkered in this I apologise, I totally agree that inducing competition in fish is highly desirable and does in many cases force otherwise canny fish to slip up.

There can also be times when other fish can have a detrimental effect on our chances of catching certain 'target' fish because the target fish have learnt to hang back and let the mugs have a go. This is where the fine art of bait application comes into play and we try to get our quarrys' confidence levels up to a point at which they just get their heads down when they come across our offerings (I wish).

The variables in this are almost limitless because of the variety of waters and their stocking levels, abundance of natural food and type / experience of the fish within them, this only leads me to form the same conclusion - that you can only base your strategy for each water on what you learn from fishing and observing that water, there is no 'one size fits all' in Carp Fishing.

What do you think ?

Mark

Axe,

top photos mate, ain't catfish ugly !

Makes a change from the usual seperated at birth trophy shots doesn't it !

Vive la France

Mark

Mark...I am having some difficulty equating "tongue" with "postlingual organ"...
Conclusive Proof?...well perhaps..I still need convincing....

RAF,
You are missing the point (as does many a carp) A carp can pick up a bait in many ways, it is the action required to get it from the lips to the front/centre/back of the mouth cavity that requires suction... and where you intend the hook to be...
Once inside the mouth, it is the action of the hair and hooklink that determines whether it is hooked.. predominantly the hair action... most rigs I have seen do not have the necessary mechanics to achieve a 50% hookhold if thay feed as described
Certainly, the swimmer rig and the blowback rig would be ineffective a lot of the time, probably the Withy, as publicised
Before a bait gets into the mouth.. consider clamp feeders and those that simply look at a bait singularly.. bait application can overcome some caution, but not all.. It may be the answer in a lot of cases but not all! competative feeding is fine if you know how to induce it..
This is getting to be like the Rotary letters and as such is very interesting, how about a few more contributors...This is very interesting and long may it continue..

Hi Pete,

sorry to butt in as I know you were addressing Raf, however I read with interest your thoughts on this being like a rotary letter, in many ways it is, dare I say it, better because you don't have to wait another year to reply or continue the thread. It is a privelige to be a part of something like this and it is open to all, so what about the rest of you ?

I also thought about your comments on the swimmer rig and withy pool rig and would like to point out that I have caught well on versions of both at one time or another. In fact I used to regard the swimmer as one of my 'banker' rigs particularly over silk weed, however I had a major run of fish fall off a couple of years ago and haven't used it since.

The interesting thing was I solved the fish loss problem with an anti eject setup but the runs tailed off considerably, maybe now the wounds have healed slightly it's high time I had a play with it again using an improved version - I think it is a mistake to reject any setup out of hand because to do so would be to remove a potentially effective weapon from the armoury and we need them all at our disposal. Let circumstances or variables dictate when we use them.

Hair action, I agree totally, many ways to skin a cat here but poles apart in the main, clamp feeders are the ultimate challenge but they're only fish, surely the human race can overcome these canniest of creatures, lets hope they get a bit of slack though....

Cheers

Mark

Disjointed possibly nonsensical thought.
The baited rig is in the carps mouth the bait is clamped firmly between the "tongue" and the roof of the mouth, the carp opens its mouth to expel the other rubbish and/or clean the bait and blows. Would or could the mass of the hook and the hooklink work against the angler and warn the carp that it is not safe to throw this particular bait back to its throat? If this makes sense to any one other than me any answers?

Perfect sense wannabe,

I would say more than a possibility depending on variables mentioned previously, but specifically if it is looking for a difference between free offerings i.e. sampling or wolfing back with gusto. Tension is also a major factor here as well.

I am inclined to think the fish does not always hold the bait against the roof of it's mouth once it is familiar with a food source. I have seen fish ingest food items and start chewing straight away. Particles of food dropping out through the gills, and others blown out then sucked back in again.

If a fish were to first pick up each bait with its lips then suck the bait back and trap it against the roof of it's mouth before finally sucking it right back for chewing I would say our chances of hooking it would be reduced by at least 150% on any normal setup.

What can fish feel in the mouth, can they detect line between there lips, when does the fish know it's in trouble, does it have to feel a 'prick' or some form of resistance I think wannabe has introduced a new train of thought here.

Cheers

Mark

Adding to what Wannabe has written, I have witnessed carp taking baits gently into their mouths and closing their mouths round the bait, so the bait was just inside the moth cavity, almost on their lips. Baits were rejected or accepted on the strength of this, rejected baits were simply spat out, almost as if there was no hook present. To witness the carp do this was nothing short of scary, and it left me wondering how we ever hook them in the first place.

Wannabe,
The carp will/can detect the presence of the hook/hooklink and try to eject..(Even if this means backing off or some form of movement)... none of the rigs stated have the mechanics to prevent this... should any of them prick the fish, then the carp has plenty of scope for ejection once hooked, as the largest mass (the bait) is still attached (according to how I've seen them published) Have you watched a hooked carp free itself after being lightly hooked? I have, and they are damn good at it!
If you think some of these rigs are good, consider this... One lake I used to fish has very clued up carp, they are quite capable with many rigs of moving a bait four to six feet, with lead, without giving more than one bleep at the rod.. they do not get hooked whilst doing this, or if they do, they rid themselves of the hook!!
I'm sorry you don't like the way I write, but I have never spelled everything out in detail, as I like to leave a little to think about... It may be cryptic at times but that's life....
Ask yourself this... If carp feed as described in many articles, why are most hookholds in the lips/scissors? sureley this is not logical...

"I'm sorry you don't like the way I write, but I have never spelled everything out in detail, as I like to leave a little to think about... It may be cryptic at times but that's life.... "
.
I too am sorry if I have some how given you that impression, please accept my most humbling apology and enlighten me as to when the insult was delivered as due to rapidly approaching dementia I appear to have forgotten?

Wannabe i believe what you are saying is exactly what happens, thats why we never hook a fish further back near the tongue area....

i will not speak any further on this subject as for fear of letting too much information out....

I have already said too much, far too much, but hope i have at least got people thinking, which gives me great pleasure....


RAFLEE


P.S. and its not because i dont have a theory on some of the points that have been talked about, its just i will be letting too much out of the bag and need to keep some things to myself and others....

RAF.

Letting too much out...?

One does not need to be in the BCSG to know a thing or two mate.

Or were you simply teasing us poor doomed souls

Bite-offs. Was that jus a load of b****ks then?

Axe

Disjointed, possibly nonsensical thought?? perhaps I'm becoming sensitive in my old age??
Axe, BCSG has nothing to do with this thread, it is open to anyone who wants to participate.. it's an open thread to all, I wish more would participate as it is only by sharing views and information that we can advance...
Can anyone tell me how a 'blowback' or 'swimmer' rig is effective in the aforementioned feediing situation? I'm damn sure that I can't....

Pete.

I know it is open to all mate, but when I read things like:

"P.S. and its not because i dont have a theory on some of the points that have been talked about, its just i will be letting too much out of the bag and need to keep some things to myself and others...." It tends to get my goat.

Perhaps I simply need a new goat. I think they sell live ones at the supermarket just down the road. It's rubbing in the garlic that I am not too fond of...

Anyway. I will just say that I was not having a go at RAF, as I respect his views, as much as anyone.

The technicalities of rigs an feeding patterns/methods are interesting to say the least, but I feel that too much emphasis is given to this when there are (in my opinion) far more basic realities which need to be addressed.

Perhap I should stay out of this one then

Axe

Pete,
Apology withdrawn as now found to be as I thought unneccessary, maybe dementia is`nt in as an advanced state as formerly suspected! "Disjointed possibly nonsensical thought. .....................................................................
If this makes sense to any one other than me any answers? "
.
This was in reference to my thought proccess or lack of, which I thought was suggested by the last sentence and not by any thing you may or may not have said at any time. And I thought I was getting paranoid with old age, it would appear I am in splendid company!!!

lol

LOL even more




had you going there for a minute didn't i .................................................................................................................................???

Lol Lol Lol Lol...Yes you did RAF.

What a fool am I ?

Axe

But does anyone think that the use of pva bags to form a tight cluster of freebies around the hookbaits, encourages a style of feeding less likely to result in a hook hold. After all, why would the carp want to move away when all the food is right under its snout?

palitine organ

I'm never going fishing again. I spend a weekend away and miss all this fun

Well done guys

Pete,

ref Swimmer Rig, not much use on paper but has caught a lot of fish on some hard waters, has run it's course perhaps but effective in it's day nonetheless. Note that I said particularly over silkweed which I love fishing into, how would your average stiff rig perform in weed - not very well at all unless it's fished 'off the lead'.

I'm still prepared to keep an open mind and find away of making a 'Swimmer' style rig which works for me, we've got an awful lot of weed in this valley.

Cheers

Mark

PS RAF sorry to lose you lol your contribution has been outstanding mate in fact if it wasn't for you this thread would never have occured.

Dunno about the splendid mate...
Just remember, because you know that you think everyone's out to get you.. doensn't mean thay are not...
Have we progressed with how a carp feeds and possible rigs then??

Pete...We have certainly progressed,I now have at least two rigs at the theoretical
stage....Is there to be another wealth of information from Spodder?

ok found this abstract for you guys read on

The process of food handling in the common carp (Cyprinus carpio L.) and its structures associated with feeding are analyzed. The aim of this study is to explain the relation between the the architecture of the head and its functions in food processing and to determine the specializations for some food types and the consequent restrictions for others. Such information improves our understanding of the trophic interrelations between different fish species living together in one community.

- Cyprinids possess pharyngeal jaws, which are modified fifth branchial arches. These are moved by the modified branchial arch muscles against a horny chewing pad in the skull. Oral teeth and a stomach are absent. The upper jaws are protrusile and so aid in the formation of a round suction mouth. The oral and opercular cavity are highly variable in volume. The pharynx is almost fully occupied by the dorsal palatal organ. The pharyngeal floor is composed of the postlingual organ and the branchial sieve. Fibre systems of striated muscles form the bulk of these organs. The branchial arches bear numerous gill rakers. The surface of the pharyngeal roof and floor is almost fully covered by taste buds (up to 82 0/MM2 ) and mucous cells. The medullar nervous centre of these organs is of about equal size as the forebrain. The narrow slit-like space between both organs has a restricted capacity for volume change, contrary to the situation in most other fishes.

- The role which these structures perform during food uptake and processing in the carp was investigated using cine- and X-ray filming techniques and by synchronously recording the electromyograms of the involved muscles (9 channels). The morphology was studied on the macroscopical and on light- and electronmicroscopical level. Food types included commercial fish pellets, barley, earthworms, tubifex, cladocerans and tubifex-soil mixtures. BaSO4-impregnated food was used to follow its path in the X-ray movies.

- Each feeding process is composed of a variable number of stereotyped movement patterns, viz: particulate intake and gulping, selection between food and non-food material (through rinsing, repositioning and backwashing), recollection from the branchial sieve followed by food transport and filling of the chewing cavity, crushing, grinding and deglutition. Probing of the soil and spitting are considered separately.

- The timing, amplitude and velocity of mouth opening, protrusion of the upper jaws, opening of the opercular valve and of the volume changes in the oral, buccal, pharyngeal and opercular cavities determine the effects of each single pattern. Food intake, selection, transport and mastication impose different demands on the head and can not be combined effectively.

- Different food types are processed in sequences of movement patterns varying in frequency and type according to the specific size, consistency and soilure of the food. Handling times are read from the electromyograms and may differ widely.

- The quantitative distribution pattern of taste buds, mucous cells, club cells and muscle fibers over the oro-pharyngeal surface is measured. Based on these patterns and on other structural characters six areas are distinguished in the oro-pharynx and related with the functions of the above movement patterns for food intake and processing. Scanning E.M. pictures are presented of the common epithelial cells with microridges, cornified cells, mucous cells, taste buds and sensory (?) oligovillous cells.

- Particulate intake is accomplished by fast and voluminous suction, caused by expansion of the orobuccal and opercular cavities. The upper jaws are protruded to produce a fast suction flow (>60 cm/sec), aimed to the particle.
Gulping, the slow and less aimed uptake of a mouthful of water with suspended foodparticles is accomplished by size increase of the oral cavity mainly. The carp finally encloses the suspension by protruding its upper jaws downward. Oral compression drives the water and food particles over the branchial sieve. The energy required for each gulp will most probably be considerably less than that needed for particulate intake.

- High densities of club cells, which produce the cyprinid alarming substance in the skin, also occur in the orobuccal lining. Their alarming function in this area is doubted.

- Selection between food and non-food requires the retention of edible particles and the expulsion of waste. The electromyograms and electrical stimulations indicate that this separation is achieved by momentary bulgings on the palatal organ, fixing edible particles between pharyngeal roof and floor. Waste particles are flushed through the branchial slits. The complex structure of the palatal organ, the almost maximal densities of taste buds and the cyto-architecture of its regulatory centre in the hindbrain suggest a high level of discrimination in this selection process. The slit-shaped pharynx guarantees a large contact area for selection, but limits its role in suction.

- Protrusion of the upper jaws with the mouth closed plays a crucial role in selection by resuspending food and non-food in the expanding oral cavity. Alternative expansion and compression of the oral cavity creates a for- and backward flow through the pharyngeal slit and the branchial sieve. Repetition of such 'closed protrusions' and selection effects are graded increasing purification. Closed protrusion movements also serve for merely repositioning of large particles and for recollection of the filtrate from the branchial sieve.

- Cells producing low-viscosity mucus (sialomucines) are found rostrally in the oro-pharynx. It probably serves in lowering the resistance of the wall for the flow of water and in protection of the underlying tissue.
Cells producing large quantities of highly viscous mucus (sulfomucines) are found in regions were aggregation and clustering of food particles prior to transport is expected.

- Transport of food enveloped in mucus is effected by a peristaltic type of movement in the palatal and postlingual organs. These also propel the food into the chewing cavity being enlarged by depression of the pharyngeal jaws.

- The pharyngeal jaws are suspended in muscular slings from the caudal part of the skull and pectoral girdle. Except an antero-ventral gliding joint with the branchial basket no articulations are present. The symphysis of the jaws allows intrinsic movements. Food is crushed and ground between the pharyngeal teeth and a cornified chewing pad, fixed to the base of the skull. Mastication of grains of maize produces distinct sounds, even distinct close to the experimental tank.

- The epaxial muscles of the carp contribute through rotation of the skull high forces to crushing and grinding. The hypaxial muscles transfer their forces to the pharyngeal teeth by retraction of the pectoral girdle, which provides a large moment-arm. The pharyngeal masticatory apparatus is built for producing and resisting high forces.

- Contrary to these 'power muscles', the hypertrophied pharyngeal jaw muscles act more like 'steering muscles'. They direct and stabilize the pharyngeal jaw movements around four anatomical rotational axes.

- The chewing construction with the rotating skull renders a single Weberian ossicle connecting the sound receiving swimming bladder and the internal ear inside the skull almost impossible. The chain of Weberian ossicles running close to the rotation centre of the skull seems to be a constructive necessity.

- Deglutition is accomplished by compression of the chewing cavity. Bulging of the palatal and postlingual organs closes the entrance and thus direct the transport to the esophagus. Movements of the pharyngeal jaws support transport.

- The apparatus for food uptake and food processing of the carp appears to be specialized to deal with medium-sized and hard food particles (e.g. seeds and shelled mollusks), from 250 pm to about 3% of its standard body length, but also for food items mixed with unedible material. These specializations for bottomfeeding are most likely basic to the present wide distribution of the common carp and facilitate fish farming.
Large, fast and struggling preys as well as large and flat plant material can hardly be utilized by the carp. Thus, also this 'omnivorous' fish is limited by its specializations in the utilization of the available food items in its environment.

- A tentative scheme relates characters from different parts of the head and unique to the cyprinid family in a functional and structural context. The development of the masticatory apparatus may well have been a key adaptation in the origin of the cyprinid feeding mechanism.

- The present research of the carp provides a new and detailed startingpoint for investigation of the regulatory mechanisms in feeding and for comparisons with native cyprinids like bream roach, tench etc. Knowledge of abilities and restrictions of their structural specializations associated with feeding eludidates which plasticity the fish has to utilize different types of food. This plasticity is a crucial factor for the survival of the species in conditions of food scarcity and co-determines its position in competition. The obtained knowledge thus aids in predicting the effects of environmental changes on the trophic interactions and composition of the fish fauna.

much will be repeated as from frist post but this a general summary from the thesis

enjoy have found quite a few more links so will keep digging

Spodder,

thanks mate, for the latest instalment, Miasma - you did ask for it.

Cheers

Mark

.......you learn something new every day

Yer bugger

So, in the light of the discussion on how a carp feeds, does anyone want to analyse the currently promoted rigs and discuss how and why they work (or don't as the case may be).. perhaps exploring how a rig can be effective in one situation and not another.. ie fishing over gravel, in silt, in silkweed.. (Mark?) is tension required?.. how does a carp eject a bait then???
This could get interesting (IMO) if enough people get involved.... or is what bivvy should I buy more interesting??

Have been following this thread with interest - great stuff and very thought provoking.

I'd like to chuck this observation in....it may be of relevance, then again...

Has anyone noticed that when carp are feeding on mixers(free offerings), occasionally a mixer will appear floating to the surface some time after it has been taken, obviously having been let go of by the carp, whether purposely or accidently is the question.
Could this be due to the carp having difficulty controling a floating bait inside its mouth cavity do you think?
In other words does gravity make a difference to the way baits (and rigs!) behave once inside the carps mouth?

Interesting observation Craig, I nearly always use a bouyant hookbait.. pop-up is not the right description.. you can add weight at many points on a rig to make a bait behave as it would not normally do... combined with a hair that makes ejection difficult, it catches most carp unawares...
They do have a problem with what seems a neutral weight in water....(for want of a better description)

I remember seeing a rig called the 'weighted drop hook' i think, publicised by Rob Maylin.
I never tried it, and perhaps I am being a little judgemental, but it did appear to me though it could cause foul-hooking(just outside the lips).

Would you think there is any mileage in additional weight on hooks?

Loads, mate.....
To really confuse a carp, light bait, heavy hook,. decent separation, well thought out hair arrangement... OR.. Neutral bait, decent seperation, well thought out hair arrangement...light and heavy hook???? Any similarities between those descriptions.. see you at the next fish in??Anyone come across clamp feeders, how do you get round that one...????
There's loads that isn't put in the mags as you know, where's Mark and Spodder gone????

Clamp feeders? Stick the hook up higher? Less seperation if any? Looney extension rig? Fixed bait & moving hooks?
Hard part is to know when it's happening!

"Anyone come across clamp feeders, how do you get round that one...???? "
.
Elasticated hairs????

Doesn't work most of the time.....

Craig,
I've also noticed in my own carp, but it is mainly with sinking food items rather than the floating pellets. They will sense the food, move over, mop it all up and then go sit in a corner to munch away but spit out some food before they start chewing, which can be quite a bit.
Maybe it has something to do with competition and predation and trying to ensure they get the food by mopping the whole lot up then ejecting some in an area where they feel safe so they don't have to venture out again or risk having some other fish eat it before they get the chance.
so it's possible you only see the floaters because they are bouyant.

I've seen the same thing in my carp in the garden Filthy.

One think Axe mentioned earlier that noone seems to have picked up on are bite offs. These tend to occur when fishing with mass beds of bait where the carp do not have to move off vary far to find the next item of food. When using long hooklengths in this situation anglers, including myself have experienced the, "where's the other half of my hooklink gone?".

This has always been thought to be due to the carp feeding so confidently that it has swallowed the bait, hook and all, and its 'teeth' have bitten through the line.

This has happened to me without a run being signalled. Has anyone ever actually seen this happen.

I have had a few pike on boilies, could these be resposible? I must say though I have only ever had the above happen to me twice in 17 years or so of carp fishing.

Singy

Can i just add a few ponits to this, its a very interesting subject. Surley a rig with a VERY short/supple hooklength. Fished over a pile of bait (pva bag) and a long hair. The fish moves over the pile of bait and starts feeding with its nose rooting about on the lake bed. When using a 'long' hooklength the fish has enough freedom/slack (unless the the hooklength is out completely straight) to roll it back to its 'tounge'. the fish fells resistance/hook and simply ejects the bait. on occasions it may panic or blow the hook onto its iner mouth resulting in the fish panicing giving a screamer. As long as the fish does not move no indication will be given at the indicators. (Any fish that has been caught a number of times will start to realise it can escape if it stays calm) Using a shortet hooklenglth will surley sort this out. fish sucks in bait, rolls it back to its tounge, fells hook, trys to eject but the hooklength is completely taught due to it being straight. The fish cant eject it (it wont move backwards, the hook will simply prick it) it CAN not eject the bait. Using a longer hair will result in clean hookholds in the bottom lip (at least i think so.) Using a short stiff link will give the fish no chance (im talking 3-4 inches and a very small lead)
Any ideas ppl, think it will work?? im gonna giv it a go

Pete...I may have come across clamp feeders...difficult to say at 50m range and in 8ft
of water,or do they only feed that way in the margins? Who Knows?...I may even have
caught one and not realised

Hmmm Clamp Feeders,

I know one, and a couple of others I suspect might be, but it's a job to see exactly what they're doing form ten feet above water level especially when they've been kicking up a bit of dirt which can spoil the view even further.

Maybe we could think about the order in which we do things to get around these ones......

Cheers

Mark

PS Anglers who've just caught one are very easy to spot

10 Feet above water level they would be.....

thought this topic should be up at the top of the list

rig wise time and place for all of them but a few will do which if K.I.S. give the end result but playing about are we just looking for the end of the rainbow?????

more to follow on the diagram side of things

Spodder - don't disclose the diagrams!

The carp world isn't ready yet, and those pictures speak a thousand words, two, three, far too many.

The tongue thing is interesting but surely just another string to your bow when thinking about bait and it's application, and inherent hooking theories.

You could actively 'use' the tongue to your advantage or try to minimize it's use in the feeding process, the choice is surely based on the bigger picture at the time?

Regards

CA

Hi All,

Spodder, steady on mate diagrams remove the need for some people to think and experiment, you have some very good ideas and the finesse with which they are tied has been taken to another level.

I will show you a rig I intend to experiment with this year next time I see you, I have also listened to what a mate of mine has said and will fish it alongside a very simple rig as a result.

I think some of the 'concept' rigs come into their own when stocking densities prevent us from creating a competitive feeding situation. It might be fun to put a list of materials on here and get everyone to have a go at making an effective rig out of them with a full explanation on how their rig works and why.

I'm a fully paid up member of Clamp Feeders Anonymous, we work a programme of complete abstinence from fishing for clamp feeders and since I've joined my sanity is very slowly starting to return !

Cheers

Mark

I'm very surprised that Mr Axeman hasn't moved this thread to the rigs section...
Mark.. Clampers can be overcome.. you know how!!
The trouble with rigs and any kind of 'live' forum or group discussion is that if you put forward a rig for a specific situation, some carp anglers take it as gospel, or it gets put out in the mags as a wonder rig... and used inappropriately...
There are arrangements out there that are superb.. but they are designed for specific circumstances and can be useless/dangerous or excellent.. (delete as required) Would you show anyone you didn't know well that quick release safety rig?? I know I wouldn't.. Angling deaths are rare.. I don't want to be responsible for adding to them!!!!
Thinking is the way forward.. give clues and point the way, but knowledge that is not earned is rarely used correctly..

Last two trips, both 1 nighters i've had 2 fish on me secret rig, the one that goes on the theory of using the 'tongue' to hold the bait, both fish from 2 different waters, Stanstead Abbotts - Abbotts lake and Linch Hill - Christchurch....

They cant be clamping that bait at the moment !!!! LOL

P.S. i also had a 17lb pike on the rig !!!!!! mental drop back, and both occasions everyone else has blanked......

Dont think i will be joining the clampers annoynomous club just yet .....LOL

Pete - very very true, not earned if you are shown...

Bring on the diagrams.I think we'll be able to think and experiment with more clarity.Great topic

Paul

Top thread, well done one and all.

A couple of questions/thoughts I have are; How about body movement of the fish during the feeding process? Does the fish ever need to 'right' itself. Has anyone hooked a carp in its 'tongue'? It strikes me that if a fish is holding a bait with this then there would have been a chance that someone somewhere would have managed to get a hook into it? Does that mean the fish holds the bait towards the front of its mouth with it? Can someone straighten me out regarding the process of cleaning the food item - does this involve more 'sucking and blowing'and taking in of more water or is this just done with the current contents of the mouth?

The talk about making the bait easy for a carp to 'suck' in, surely this aint what any stiff rig lends itself towards? Rigs that spring to mind here that would help this are the concertina types Jim Gibbinson uses fished with critically balanced hook baits.

Are there many people fishing rigs that look at getting the hook in first - the ones that spring to mind here are the Martin Clarke scorpion ones, but tying those and ensuring they sit right is another thing, (I'd fish one but only in the margins where I had a chance to 'place' it). Do we need to mount a bait off the hook? All we need to do is ensure the hook is entering the mouth.

A few years back there was the whisker rigs that got a bit of a following, I don't see many of these aroung these days. But I do believe they made it hard for the fish to eject.

In my opinion I doubt there is ever an ultimate rig, for me it is more one of making the rig as efficient as possible, certainly knowing how the carp feed helps this. Also, having some variety with the rigs fished - keep the fish guessing and not just following the herd (How many people are now just using knotless knot rigs with baits close to the bend).

What I would be interested in is any findings on the 'learning process' of a carp, how long does it take one to change its habits based on past history - if it ever does??

I notice RAF seemed to be giving more of his rig secrets away on another site he''ll be providing the pictures shortly!!

Had to write something as I've read the thread a few times but never commented and its one thats well worth continuing.

Cheers,

John.

Hi John,

welcome aboard mate, the more the merrier, I like your point about body movement, I agree with the point you are making about the fish not necessarily 'righting' itself in fact depending on the shape of the fish and the angle of it's mouth it may not even have to up end to feed.

I think it definitely pays to make myself familiar with my quarry, but going back to fish that do up end, I think it is possible for a fish to establish whether or not a bait is tethered without 'righting' itself and drop it. This is the time when a good stiff presentation can come into it's own being hard to spit or drop.

Cheers

mark

should this thread be allowed to go to sleep in the depths
think not bringing it back alive

come now guys time to relight
best if the mods would move it to the rigs section took me 10 mins to find was looking in the wrong forum section????

Any of the more experienced mods want to move this to bait and tackle.. and send me details of how to move a thread..

Cheers Andy.. if Lancs worked it out how come I couldn't?? I think I'm going to get slaughtered here...
Anyway.. back to the subject.... it has already been discussed a bit, but how much does everyone think bait shape effects the efficiency of rigs? can they trap a flat bait without being hooked???

First time I've seen this thread, veeeeeeery interesting, I have'nt read all the post's, but bearing the original Maddox/Middleton approach in mind I have an idea I'll try next time the carp rods come out, I got fed up of mud and flooding on my water and I'm currently Chubbing, just to get a bend in the rod..

Dont panic Pete it was hypothetical, i.e even Lanc's COULD manage to do it.

Andy....

Come on rig techies?? how does bait shape effect ejection and rig mechanics.. if indeed it does??

..Are we talking Pop-Ups or Bottom Baits? ......

Hi,
I've just read through this most fascinating thread (my head hurts) and in some ways it as enlightened and confused, setting the foundations for a whole new thought process towards this subject and I thank you all!

Thinking in laymens terms, a round bait must be easier to eject compared to a flat shaped bait of a comparitive composition, considering how a flat object flutters one way and then another almost unpredictably, after all I don't think the musket ball would have been very sucessful if it was flat. Do you?

It may be a stupid question, but...
How would a Carp handle a multi haired hook, baited with many smaller, different shaped items all moving differently due to their size, weight, shape and possibly hair length?

Andy.

I can hear voices in my head.

here's one that i used but never gave much time to was fishing two baits side by side off seprate hairs pop-ups
rather than stacked how many have tried this way????

Verifiable facts being infinitely unavailable,it is amusing to theorise from an
anthropomorphic perspective......
Swallowing or ejecting a Pea or Baked Bean would seem to present no great problem,but
consider Lettuce,Cream Crackers or Spaghetti....food for thought!
However,my hookbaits are invariably 10mm or smaller,for very good reasons,and thus do not
lend themselves easily to any great degree of experimental scope.
I am,therefore,perfectly content to continue in total and complete ignorance.......very
much my usual state anyway! .......

Miasma.. Both..

fish4carp.. answer to your 'stupid question'.. very badly.. but it will depend on many factors, such as length of hairs, properties of the baits and how you design the hooklink to perform..

Let's put some diagrams up here.. Colne, Raf, Mark.. are you in agreement..???