Well each and every one to his own.
I can live with a UK made Aqua sling and Trev Moss rucksacks but still happy with a Chub foreign made bedchair bag as long as does what it`s intended for.
Stainless,well i challenge anyone to match Steve Nevilles gear or the innovative Leslies of Luton bars.

It's quiet clear to me, that while you all may have opinions on the tackle trade. some of you actually know very little about it. i have covered the points about retailing before, so I won't repeat them. One of the reasons Badger stuff is cheap is because he is not selling from a retail premises. He is bringing the stuff in direct and selling it direct. There is no middle man. He is making the same mark-up as the big companies but only dealing from one unit. he is also only selling copies of other products and putting nothing back into new product development. Is that good for the trade? I don't think so. Is that good for the angler? I don't think so. I know the owner of Badger and his other shop, he knows it's a short term big hit. -it's not the one in Marschapel, he went out of business at the start of the year. Selling cheap can be ok, but you have to have high turnover. Also if you rip other companies off, then you run the risk of litigation. All you see is the end product price to the user. Why don't you stay at home and have a pint? cut out the middle man, grow your own beans, cut out the middle man. then everything will be cheaper.

Andy, using a retail network to justify high prices doesn't work nowadays... we are now in a global market and a few tackle companies will get a nasty shock in the near future.. Badger tackle is cheap because he is sourcing the goods cheaply and selling direct I agree.. but what is wrong with that..
The large tackle shops have enormous buying power to the detriment of the smaller outfits.. and manufacturers of tackle prefer the larger outlets.. as my friends with tackle shops know only too well.
I haven't seen the rods badger is selling but wouldn't mind betting they are the same blank as those from 'name' manufacturers, just a different colour and decals! As for 'ripping other companies off' the rods above are sold by a lot of companies/shops at varying prices.. they cost very little when bought direct from the far east.. what 'development' is there in that?
The UK carp tackle trade - I am not talking about the shops here - has for a long time inflated prices mostly to the detriment of the shops/consumer and a few people are now 'biting back' It seems that if you put 'Carp Dome' in front of a tent it is worth £££ more... Development...? yes it will continue as carp anglers strive for the ultimate it is just that the end result will be cheaper for all!
Why for instance can I buy 2000 yards of braid from the States at £58 including shipping but when the same braid is sold over here it is £30 for 300 yards? couldn't be the fact that if it is sold at its uninflated price the existing price level for braided lines would be destroyed? I suppose that's a bit cynical...
I have no grudge with people making a living from tackle, it's just that when you read the advertising hype and know the backgrounk to the product it does get a bit galling. there are some major league rip offs out there in the name of 'carp fishing'
Happy carping

Very well put Peter.

I dont think one has to be 'in the trade' to know that the prices are inflated or even understand the mechanisms of the trade.

Andy may well be more informed than some of us, but do we need to be also?

I suspect we all have been around long enough that even a wild guess or presumption that we are being taken for a ride would be correct here in Britain.

I hope that the manufacturers of Badger (who I hadn't even heard of before this topic) are taking legal advice regarding their 'copys'. Because if their tackle is as good as has been suggested they deserve to take the trade to task.

If anyone here thinks that retail outlets are going to have the lions share of sales in the future, I would put forward that this is not going to be the case. Also if the trade is running scared and worrying about their futures, get on the bandwagon now! and join your competitors and get wired to the net.

If the retailers/ manufacturers think that my statement above is not the way forward, then carry on regardless...of a growing new way/wave of marketing and selling.

Objectively Axeman.

Hi Axe,
I am genuinely sad that the retail market in the sense of a local tackle shop will decrease.. however this is slightly inevitable with the way things are going, mail order/internet etc, some of my closest friends run tackle shops and they see the future clearly. The local shop is a focus for anglers and a key to the attraction of youngsters to the sport in terms of advice and local presence, with their demise there will be a void that will be difficult to fill..
This does not however impact on some of the cynical marketing/profiteering that goes on in the carp tackle industry... I have not named any particular company as the effect would be mainly felt by the people who are least to blame!
Happy Carping
The internet and forums like this I hope will go some way to help.

Andy Murray is spot on in terms of product development.
Let me give you one example. I test and trial prototype rods for Daiwa who don't just buy stock blanks and put their name to them as some people think. They send me lots of different tips and butt sections, with various ringing patterns. In the last couple of years this has involved entry level rods and the Dictator/Infinity.
I put them through their paces in terms of fishing and casting - I overload/underload them for casting, playing fish etc. for several months, try different tips.
I then submit a detailed report to Daiwa, making my recommendations. The Daiwa engineers then read them, and then conduct their own lab-based tests for strength etc over a period of time. If everything looks fine, then the product is launched but only after months of testing and trials. The same with luggage. Daiwa brought the new luggage down to Horton whilst I was fishing and the lads and I pulled them about, tried them etc. Then it was back to Daiwa for amendments, additions, extra strength sewing etc. Once everyone was happy with the quality they then went into production.
Now looking at the Badger ad, it is clear that they are copies of other companies products, manufactured in the Orient, like most other companies are too. Companies would prefer to use English suppliers, but once one or two big boys go abroad the rest have to follow because the price is cheaper. Now the guy at Badger might well say 'copy this' and give a rod to them that I developed with Daiwa or a piece of luggage. The finished article that took months and months of effort. But he isn't paying me for what I put into it is he, or Daiwa who went to the trouble to get the product right, is he?
Andy's spot-on with this issue. The way some of you are arguing it is as if Badger are doing good for angling. How?
Whoever it is, is in in for money, purely and simply. Perhaps I should ask him to sponsor my angling classes, the PAA, and Carp Lake Daiwa and all the other things our big companies genuinely put back into the sport.
He's cheap as Andy says because he is selling direct. Fox or Daiwa have to pay the manufacturers to produce, and the manufacturers need to make a profit otherwise there's no point in doing it. Fox and Daiwa have to make a profit or there is no point in doing it. They distribute to the tackle shops which is the backbone of the angling industry, and the shops need to make a profit too, or there is no point in doing it. As Andy says, Badger cut out the Tackle shops and sell direct and probably make more money as a result.
The end result for you is cheap gear, based on someone elses hard work. The result long term as I mentioned above, is the closure of many tackle shops and thousands of people made unemployed, and a tackle industry that will go into greater decline than it is at the moment. No innovation, no new product development (except for complex items such as reels etc which are difficult to copy) - as there is no point in spending money on innovation/new product development if someone is just going to rip it off, by getting around patents etc.
Is this all what we really want?

[This message has been edited by Paul Selman (edited 15-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Paul Selman (edited 15-10-2000).]

That is a fine piece of writing Paul and I expect it is spot on in its integrity and its definition.

I personaly prefer to discuss, not argue.

I cannot maybe speak so knowledgeably about the trade as someone like yourself and Andy, as no-one sends me any gear to test or would perhaps even value my opinion if they did, because I am just Joe Public.

What I can talk about is the fact that I/we as the Carp anglers are the ones buying all this extensivley, rigourously tested tackle, clothing and luggage. And frankly a lot of it is not up to par. I wish F0x had sent me my bedchair to 'test' instead of making me buy one at £150 and finding out in the middle of a weeks' session that it was poorly constructed. Let alone the hassle I had to go through to get a replacement, after I refused to take advice about how to get the legs to stop sliding down. 'just remove the lever mechanism, and put it in the other way 'round'...I ask you. I did suggest they had a design that worked first instead of a workaround solution. Look at the ongoing problems regarding leaking/poorly designed bivvys for a long term consumer problem. It stinks!

I believe we as customers sometimes end up doing the fieldtesting for the manufacturers, a little like Microsoft keep churning out unfinished, bugridden software. Then asking us to send in reports, then bringing out the latest version befor even perfecting the last one. No one is paying us for this service either.

Developments are one thing and getting it right before release for sale is another

No one here is saying (as I understand) that we want 'cheap over quality' or would really want to see anyone lose their job or work for nothing. But let us at least get the quality that has been built into it through all the fieldtesting that Anglers like yourself do, Paul.

I would too defend my 'occupation/business'if I felt it was under attack also, but I would be also keeping a very keen eye on the consumer trend and feedback, because if the manufacturer/designer/salesman/fieldtester does not, then it may well find that the consumer actually gets fed up of being patronised and ridden roughshod over.

We must have to admit to other facts here. Tackle companys (Badger) etc would not be in the marketplace, if there was No market for them ie. their very existance would not be an issue. But is is an issue. What does that tell me? They have at the moment a percentage share of the market. Why? because someone is buying from them. If their very existance is ignored and ridiculed by the 'larger'companies then at the very least it is arrogant and at the most potentially damaging.

I for one would at least take this as a consumer warning shot across the bows, if I had an investment in the tackle trade.

The F0x alarms you are using at the moment Paul. Was this not a 'getting around patents' excercise? (tell me if I am wrong)

I had an interesting discussion with a few fishing friends this weekend (whilst fishing) And their knowledge of the Badger Company was superior to my own. What I heard was a little disquieting to say the least. Precis; If it is good gear as has been mentioned, then that is great news for us anglers. If it is not, then at least we are not paying for something that is irreplaceable the next season 'round. The trend?

I hate to say this, but we as anglers maybe, just maybe do not share your passion for the Major Manufacturers problems as our main objective is to go fishing with decent gear at a reasonable cost to us. This is what we really want.

I have desperatly been trying to speak objectivly from a 'neutral or consumer' point of view. I am sure I may have failed in some respects, if they are glaring please accept my apologies. And I do not presume to speak from a collective point of view either. Just my own.

Regards Axeman.

Hi Paul,
I partially agree with you.. however, to compare Daiwa (multi million, multi national company whose interest in UK or even worldwide carp fishing is not core to their business) to the UK scene in general is somewhat misleading. Some companies conduct real trials of the equipment and field test properly I agree and my post was in no way a criticism of you or any other genuine tester, but this is not the issue here is it?
Quality will always sell and that has been proven over many years.. what is at issue is at what price?
As you have referred to rods.. Taiwanese/far eastern rods fully built (in various test curves) are available at £15 fully built if you buy a certain quantity, these are sold by various companies/shops at between £70 and £120 (not Daiwa - thought I'd get that one in)
To anyone out there who thinks blank colour differentiates a rod.. it's only a colouring and you can make a rod look anything you like... I've always thought a set of yellow ones would be quite nice..
Yes Paul, rods can be copied but an exact copy is near impossible.. genuine innovators will always prevail!
As for the UK scene.. this is where we will have to agree to disagree.. there are products out there that are a complete con.. from revolutionary new baits that are pellets at £26 per sack being sold at £10 per Kilo (1000% markup) to environmentally friendly packing chips sold as a presentation aid! (don't know what the exact markup on these is.. but it's a lot better than the previous example) there are many more and this is not the place to go into them but this also covers bivvies, bed chairs and most other items of tackle!
The UK scene is becoming a joke, fuelled by advertising hype that is reinforced by the popular carp media..
I stand by my original asertion, the average carp angler is being taken for a very long ride!
As to whether Badger is doing the carp fishing majority a favour.. time will tell! if it makes a few companies sit up and take notice then I take my hat off to them!
Happy Carping

hi all.
well i might as well jump in with both feet so here goes.
yesterday i went to a local tackle shop,as i was in the market for one of those GO GAS sumit stoves plus a couple of cans of gas,in cw they are price at £33.00+£2.00 p&p total price £35.00, in my local takle shop they were priced at £45.00 plus £8.00 for each bottle of gas.needless to say i kept my money in my pocket.
i then went to a camping store and the same stove was £35.00 and the bottles of gas were £5.00 each.so why were the tackle shop over charging.was it simply that they thought that anglers would pay the extra because it was sold in a tackle shop.if so (and i cant think of any other reason for over charging) then they deserve to go out of buisness.
also arnt the big tackle makers also at fault as they do stop tackle shops from selling their suff cheaper that the recomended price.shurly this can not be any good for the trade as if a takle shop can say cut £20.00 of the recomended retail price and still make a prophit why should they be stopped from doing so.
if a tackle maker sells say his rods to a takle shop at say £100 each it should then be up to the takle shop as to the price they then charge the customer.

A lot of topical discussion seems to be revolving around the Copying.

Whilst it is the case that Badger does seem to copy other peoples goods, is this any different than what is the general norm for everyday life.

Look at clothing, car manufacturers, electrical goods.

And then look at the price difference from the original product lauch.

I can remember cam corders the size of houses being sold for over a grand. Now you can get em the size of a walkman for under a grand. Innovation killing,,,,,,I think not. Price reducing and effective market leading.....I think so.