Whist sitting contemplating the meaning of life last night by the lake (you have all been there), I was running through the idea of Why we add flavours to base mixes.

Does anyone know of a NATURAL flavour, ie snail, bloodworm etc etc.

After I finish off my bait for this year Im playing with the idea of rolling my own (again) but want to get away from using flavours that seem more at home making the fishermen want to eat them.

I possible I dont want to use any flavour at all, but create or add to an existing base mix. So what needs to go into a base mix, starting from scratch, an all round bait for early season to the end is what I am after.

Bait gurus, your replies please.

Lancs.

Trying getting some snails and bloodworms and getting them in the blender. Doesn't come any more natural than that.

I did use a lobworm extract, many years ago but I have got to admit I did not persevere with it.

Regards Axeman.

Crush up your broken egg shells and add them to the mix as well,it shouldn`t affect the rolling properties but will help to make a bait more permeable and give the carp something to crunch on.

Axe, I was thinking about something like that, and have recently been given a blender, however Im not too sure if it would work to the desired effect.

Multi vitamins, feed enhancers, palatants, additives, what else is there to think about.

I have seen that you can purchase individual ingredients to make your own basemixes,,,has anyone done this.

Lancs,
Alot of bait companies have dropped or reduced their selection of individual base mix components in favour of packaged base mixes probably due to lack of demand and a reluctance amongst anglers to play about and mix their own.
I must admit apart from enhancers and a bit of robin red here and there i don`t bother mixing my own these days tending to use a mixture of prepackage Nutrabaits and Nev Ficklings Lucebaits bases.
Health food shops stock egg & milk powder and Casilan, petfood shops for fishmeals,birdfoods.Pay & weigh type shops for soya flour,semolina,wheat germ.
We had a post a while back from Butt Banger who was knocking up 20kg batchs of dry weight fishmeal bait mix sourced from local shops ,it`s really not that differcult.

[This message has been edited by Kevin Babij (edited 10-09-2000).]

Lancs, try this one if you have a nice air tight tub handy.

Quote Butt Banger 13/06/00

2kg Robin Red
3kg S &A meal
2kg Capelin meal
2kg white fish meal
1kg kelp meal
5kg CLO
1kg Nectarblend
2kg Calf milk
3kg Semo

Mixed with 10ml Salmon oil.1ml Protaste,4ml cranberry NF,15ml minamino.

Ingredients are bought from Quality Baits.(This mix costs £40 for 20kg).

Also can you tell where has a reliable supply of CLO - it seems v. hard to get hold of it lately.

Cheers

Butt Banger

Lancs.

I used to use the SBS range of individual ingredients back in the '80s with no problem other than the hassle.

I have read here, or somewhere else, that there a lot of the 'Top guys' who are using the ready made type bait because they believe that they do not come any better. Now then, that said, I am not neccesarily saying I believe that, because sometimes they would wouldn't they. (Sorry for being cynical)

As Lofty hits upon in the 'Trigga' Topic, I believe that if it were not for people who make their own baits, there would be no forward movement and we would all end up using shop bought baits/believing what we are told. Not good for me.

I would just like to finish with a rather strange observation I READ about many years ago regarding Enzymes.

This writer suggested that the reason that Herons were very good fisher'birds'
is because of the natural Enzymes that were released by the birds' feet, whilst stood in the water, thereby attracting the fish to the area around the feet.

Do not read on if you are a very sensitive person. (or you have just had your dinner)

This guy went on to suggest that a good ingriedient for (Fish) baits might be, erm, how do I say this...Male sperm. This is because it also apparently contains lots of natural enzymes.

I am glad he did not reccommend a large amount of it.

I have never tried this, I must add, but it did open my mind to the possible sources (not sauces) for natural ingredients in baits.

Imagine trying to roll that bait

I did warn you.

Apologeticaly Axeman.

Hmm. Now I understand what pva tube is for...

[This message has been edited by lancj1 (edited 10-09-2000).]

Well we always knew there was the odd tosser or two in the carping fraternity.

Kevin.

Makes one wonder if these 'tossers' are the top lads who are catching all the fish.

Axe

Bit like the game anglers tieing up flies from their beloved`s fuzz.

I guess Lancs title was right,it`s not been a boring thread after all

[This message has been edited by Kevin Babij (edited 11-09-2000).]

I have also been having increasing doubts about the addition of flavours to base mixes which in theory, should have all the necessary attractors in the ingredients themselves. I have also had doubts put in my mind by my extremely unscientific tank tests on my goldfish. The addition of even small amounts of MOST flavours in a sample mix make them bolt to the other end of the tank in panic. In contrast, most unadulterated mixes, especially those with a good fishmeal, will have them rooting around for ages. One of the fishmeals I have been using is Assassinate PT10. I refuse to buy the so-called Activator, as there is no indication as to what's in it, and as far as I'm concerned it may well be very similar to something like Nutramino, only at an even more inflated price. One of my mates thinks that the bait won't work without the Activator, but as far as I'm concerned that is rubbish. When mixed with Robin Red, Cod Liver Oil, Betain and Nutramino, it produces a very wierd smelling bait that tends to become very slimy, and sends my fish into a frenzy. Unfortunately, I can't report any useful conclusions regarding wild fish, as I'm having my worst season ever, and seem to be having difficulty in getting a take on anything.
Incidentally, my mate who is using Big Fish Mix, (plus the usual popular additives), has just switched over to a plum flavour that he read about. When I broke one open, it was the best imitation of Germolene that you could hope for.
ps Regarding the bodily fluids point, is this why rolling your meat seems to be so successful for barbel?

Just been reading Carpworld, and have come across a great article from Mike Wilmot regarding bait. However there is a hell of a lot of room for expansion which I hope that he will indeed cover.

He touched upon the topic of natural food producing enzymes or something when they move, whilst I think that this is unlikely (bloodworm having b.o), I do think that they fish pick up on the electrostatic pulses caused by movement (a well proven receptor for the fishes latteral line). Whilst it is unlikely to produce a bait that gives off electro static (unless you plug it in,,,interesting thought) I am wondering if it is possible to replicate the enzymes by liquidising the natural product........

Is it likely that these enzymes/protiens etc would be harmed when the bait is boiled. (christ Im getting technical),,,sorry guys.

Lancs

Hows it goin? Seems like long time no speak but looking at your posts on here its because I'm struggling to get on much now.

On your bait subject if you want to try and get live enzymes to work in your bait your boiling time is going to have to be extremely low. Only just enough to put a skin on the bait. I'm not sure if I can do this Paul so if I can't you may need to take it off but Carp Unlimited 01206 760775 do a wide range of individual bait (base mix) ingrediant's if you want to have a bash making one up.

Were gonna have to arrange another trip again soon.

Rob

Evening rob, yeh we will have to get together again. After the fish less fish in last time....Have you seen the post about next year....It looks like something is gonna go off, so get your name in if you havent already.

Paul, Pete, Steve, have you got any input on the post that I have got above regarding the enzymes..

Pete, you touched on the subject of PH vaules of bait in a previous post...Can you expand on it for me, Should the value of the bait be higher or lower that the water value.

How do you go around changing that value, and how can you assess its orginal value.......Do you think that I should just go out and buy a base mix?.

I used enzymes in baits for a number of years and results were variable. The aim was not to use them as an attractor (Lancs herons emit amino acids from their feet, I think, ) but to break-up the peptide protein chains to increase the biological value of the bait to the carp. This was in milk proteins, primarily based on casein and lactalbumen. The idea being that the carps gut could then more easily utilise the nutritional value in the bait as the enzymes within it would have split the peptide chains.
I had both spectacular success and abject failure - and the processes involved were expensive. It is a very complicated topic, involves pH, and enzyme triggers, temperatures. It would best be set out in an article rather than on here due to complexity.
Ingredients experimented with ? Pineapple bromelain, trypsin, papain. Plus commercial complexes such as Bengers, Davina and various body-builders supplements. Body builders have been using the enzyme concept in their diets for a long time.
Although the theory to mer was proven, I came to the conclusion than rather spend hundreds of hours trying to get the concept to work in the unstable environment of the kitchen, it would be far better to source professionally/scientific process produced pre-digested ingredients and incorporate these into my mixes. On a couple of occasions for example, my baits ended up as virtual snot in transit between kitchen table and lake!
Hence, today my use of pre-digested liquid foods such as the minamino derivatives and also pre-digested hydrolysates and occasionally, The Addits, although I see little point in using those if the bait already contains betaine.
Still with me or have you nodded off... ?

[This message has been edited by Paul Selman (edited 14-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Paul Selman (edited 14-09-2000).]

I have heard that if the PH of a bait is around 3 to 3.5 it will acceptable as a food source to the carp, is this right ? Does adding small amounts of salt to the bait help with this ?

Chris S

I take it there is no easy way to do this with products that may already be available from the big bait firms, I easy, as it seems to me that you have to have a degree in chemistry and biophysics....

I want to break things down to simple stages at the moment before trying to get my head into the finer internal organ wrentching head numbing chemistry.

With the ingredients available is it possible to make a base mix that may not have alredy been made, Im on about fishmeals, casinates etc etc.

Or should I go for a premade mix and then add bits to it.

AS to your ealier point Lancs about herons feet, if I remember rightly a few years ago I read an article about matchmen that used the hair of their lady's nether regions to bring about a bite response from course fish. Having never tried this due to the possibility of a resulting black eye you may well be onto something but, I suppose it could take a while to build up sufficient quantities for a 6egg mix.

C

C'man.

You no read previous posts proper.

Axe.

I have been using mixes with Salt in them for years, the fish like it !!!

Not sure about the PH level...

Premier Aminos have a very good PH level.....! (So i am told)

I would agree with RAF re the addition of salt,try Knorr Aromat available from local supermarkets at one level tsp to lb mix,it`s a salty/savoury/(MSG) additive used in cooking for flavouring fish/meat/stews/casseroles etc...
Curry powder is not be ingored either.

Oh god, hes back....I hear you all say...

Im still on for making my own mix....I have spent 4 hours searching the web for info on Aquaculture, Animal Feeds, Fish Feeds, Fish nutrition.....

Does anyone in the whole bloody world have a site to recommend what all of the ingredients that go into a base mix do.

Im on about Mesh Rennet Cassienatte, etc etc.....I spent about 20 mins in Hollands and Barrets today, what is it that I should be looking for.....Should I be browsing in the body builders section????.

Any one with a chemistry degree please email me off line.....

Lancy.

Try http://www.askjeeves.co.uk I use this quite a lot for my research. Gotta put some time in on it. Dont be too specific, just type in the word and a '?' after it.

Axeman.

It is possible to put together a bait that consists of entirely naturally occurring ingredients. This was the thinking behing Aquatic Formulae when I was linked up with Premier Baits. You can obtain bloodworm and daphnia meal for example, and other meals based on pondlife. The next stage Premier looked at were baits based on silkworm pupae which are fed to koi as treats. Unfortunately, this was too expensive an operation as the minimum quantity which could be purchased for experimental reasons was a couple of tons, imported from China!
I don't know whether Aquatic Formulae is still available, but it did not prove as succesful as thought. Fishmeal baits still outfished it, although in truth the idea just didn't catch on.
And there's the rub. Just because something naturally occurs in lakes it doesn't mean it is necessarily more nutritional than other ingredients that don't!

Lancs, give Marriages at chelmsford in Essex a ring and get a catalogue.
I'll send you an E-mail with some further details of suppliers.
Happy Carping

Axe, thats what I was doing, Im now waiting on some University reaseach papers to come through, This should tell me what is needed in regards to fish nutrition. I have also emailed a few bait firms asking for advice, and did come across a supplier of "meal" mixes.

Pete, thanks, Ill wait for your mail. P.s I found that other stuff that you told me about, not got it yet. short on the reddies.