One for the home growers rollers out there

Has anyone played about with herbs and spices in their base mix? If so, what have you found effective?
Is there an 'overload' point with any of them, or anyones to avoid?

I use 11 differant herbs and spices with my mix and it works makes my bait smell like an asian takeaway LOL

I add 1 desert spoon per six egg mix

Found any that don't work then Biv?

After a bit of reading about I'm trying some fenugreek, chilli and garlic powder in my base mix. Just done a six egger and going to test it out on my lass's dad's koi, will see what happens

i have been using spice for many years , there are plenty that dont work , and a few that really work well , keep the garlic levels low , for some reason, the animal feed garlic is crap compared to human grade garlic , more husk than garlic i guess ?

To be honest a mate gave me the tip on a product called "ti 7 spice" he had good sucsess with it in his own bait on one particular water we fish.

I wanted to try something differant to him so i bought every hurb/spice mentioned on the 7 spice jar i could find plus a load of others not mentioned,i picked up every jar in the spice rack at asda and put them all together and mixed them up in a large tub so ive never actualy tried them individualy so i can't tell if any don't work because ive caught on that mix.

Mind you ive caught plenty on my own base mix on other waters long before i ever started to add any spices/hurbs to it.

I knew garlic was one that could be overdone so currently trying 1 teaspoon in 6 egg mix with fenugreek and chilli mixed into the basemix at 2% each. I've done well using the mix 'plain' with just my regular additives but we're always trying to improve

As a rough guide, these are what I consider about optimum/maximum levels of various common spices in a bait.... not all at once mind you... All are per kilo of basemix:

Chilli 70g
Fenugreek 40g
Garam Masala 90g
Garlic 50g
Coriander 100g
Asofeotida 30g
Tandoori powder 60g
Black pepper 50g

Hope this helps...

Nice one Pete, that'll save a lot of messing about

Have you found capsaicin to have any effect on a carp's digestive tract as 70g of chilli is a fair bit! (my arse would certainly tingle )

In over 40 years worth of carping, I have found it very hard to OVERDO the chilli. The more I put in, the more I appear to catch. Thats of course, when and if I can be bothered to go;);)

kind regards Jeff

Chilli 70g

Thats ok then im not over loading my base as its only got 62g in but of milder paprika

high amounts of chilli do catch ,
but,
the bait blows very quickly ,

Capsicum won't effect digestion in carp....either way...

High levels of chilli.. baits blowing... depends on pH of the water.. and what other Acidic/Alkaline ingredients you use... same regards 'flavours'...

Twitching or burning ringpieces are not the result of chilli overload in carp...

We are going down the attractor route again with a different slant...

Best source of garlic oil I've found is Hofels Original Garlic Pearles...good concentration of garlic on a soya oil base...squeeze the pearles and add the garlic oil at 5ml per six egg mix in any base mix...

You can also add further attractors to the pearles oil, with past favourites being Richworth Blue Cheese at 3ml or Liver Extract added as powder to the base mix....

I have caught 100's of carp on Garlic/ Blue Cheese or liver...

These attractors were originally developed by Tim Paisley who passed them onto others...

Paul, have you tried the Minced Garlic found in Indian supermarkets... superior to any oil...

The tandoori powder is the one to start with,as it contains 5 different spices and is a good base to work from.

Ground Corinader,Ground cumin,smoked paprika,tumeric,chilli powder,good pinch of saxa.

j.

I actually have the only source of the best garlic oil available I believe from anywhere...Its in liquid form that disperses much better in the mix and comes directly from scotland. Results speak for themselves, and they certainly have over the past 5 or so years from first sourcing this particular product...It is...the Bollox.
I believe there to be nothing better available today...nuff said!

Billy,

Dispersion and solubility are the key but oils do neither, are you sure you don't have a product that is water based... I have used a highland product that is very effective.... maybe the same one... however, Rajah garlic paste is a cheaper and nearly as effective product...

On a different note... anyone care to stick heir head above the parapet and offer a suggestion as to why Garlic or any other 'erb 'n' spice' works???

Sure I read somewhere years ago that capsaicin in chillis mimicked a food signal but can't remember which one, possibly aminos?

I'm sure there would also be some localised pH effect on the water, possibly from alkaloids within the plant tissues the spices are derived from (thinking fenugreek here with the alkaloids as many members of the pea family contain them).

Nothing will mimic amino signals.... the receptors are too specific, however, pH differentials are worth looking into... one reason why solubility is a major factor.. and oils are not really attractors...

Are we talking Sulfur Compounds Pete?

Some sulphur compounds perhaps....? but very difficult to regulate.....



The trouble with all this attraction lark in carp baits is that very few people actually understand what is attractive, to determine that you have to understand what a carp can detect and at what level that 'attractor', if any, works or doesn't.... it's something I keep coming back to, a few on here know what I mean, to many I may as well type all replies on bait in Mandarin for all the sense it makes...

Oils are not attractors!

Not for one second going to try to contradict you Pete, but I would love to hear you expand on that a little.

In my simple mind oils/lipids are an essential part of a carp’s diet. Given that protien/amino's are also only a part of that ideal diet, why would the detection of amino’s be more of a food signal/attractor than any other component of that ideal diet i.e. lipids?

Andy,

This maybe of use for a very small part of your question..Or it maybe not.. as it raises lot of other questions..

Lifted from.. Knowing BASS – Keith. A.Jones-PhD…. Please note this is a book on BASS

Both taste & smell receptors can only respond to molecules with which they make true physical contact. Accordingly, only stimulant molecules dispersed throughout the water can ever reach the receptor pockets & make physical contact. This requirement puts a physical limitation on what kind of stimulation a BASS can experience. Water-insoluble substances, such as fats & oils, are rarely dispersed as single molecules in the water. More often they form multi-molecular aggregates having the least amount of surface contact with the water. In this form these substances are incapable of stimulating BASS.
To BASS, oils & other water-insoluble substances don’t exist. Besides needing to be water soluble, stimulant molecules must as a general rule be comparatively small. Super large molecules like proteins & fats are simply too massive to fit into the receptor pockets.

For the rest of your question I will leave Mandarin Pete & others more knowledgeable than me to expand on…

feck it,just use good old fashioned tutti`s and forget all about it

We're talking about many facets of 'attraction' when we look at why herbs and spices work in boiled carps baits. pH differentials as already mentioned, you wont find an effective spice or spice blend that does not elicit a change in pH if put into solution.

This is just part of it in my opinion, we can isolate amino derivatives from the aforementioned groups, we can also identify powerful alkaloids which can possibly have interactions with a carp’s nervous system. Couple this to possible immune augmentation and digestive aids and we begin to see the story behind why herbs and spices are particularly useful in boiled baits.

Capsaicin, again it’s quite probable that it interacts with the correct receptor type in a carp, namely the TRPV type and this again elicits a reaction or stimulates a particular gustatory response. There’s more to discuss but these reasons alone should warrant anyone to further investigate and consider the use of herbs and spices in carp baits.

Good answer that mr Saggy belly

Also the blends of certain spices at the correct levels are far superior to the addition of just a single spice.

Where is it possible to find min/max of each herb or spice ?

If I had the time I would play about finding good levels and blends of spices through slogging at it the old way but unfortunately my fishing time is extremely limited now, especially from late april to the end of october.

I know my usual bait works well, I even had a shoal of pound plus roach gorging themselves on my 14mm lightly skinned baits last time I used it, much to the disdain of the local match anglers However with my limited time any increase in bait effectiveness is more than welcome My current test blend of chilli (20g/kg), fenugreek (20g/kg) and garlic (25g/kg) has had one take so far but it's only been used the once, and I lost the bugger as I was busy playing a fish already. The dog, ducks, swans and coots certainly like it and the koi and goldfish in my 'inlaws' pond cleared up the halved and crumbed baits I put in their pond sharpish so it's looking ok so far.
I'll have to try and get on a nice easy water for a day session or two for further tests...

what about a good dose of steak seasoning from schwartz..theres chunks in it like so will need blending to complete powder form..i`d say half a teaspoon to a kilo and the same of tikka massala powdered marinade from knorr..again blended together with a bit of dry mix to make sure the lumps dont sink to the bottom of the blender with blending little amounts...
caught a cat with that in a mix in winter too..with a tiny amount of garlic butter thrown in for good measure

Hey Pete,
Any idea what the spice blend was in the old Rod Hutchinson Ultraspice base? I remember good results off it but had to stop using it as it gave me a banging headache whenever I made up a mix of it!

John, not sure of the Ultraspice, never used it....

Oils, The reply re: Bass just about sums it up.. and emulsifiers don't help much either...

Andy, A carp can live on a protein diet, lipids spare protein from being used for energy, thus promoting growth/tissue repair, a carp cannot live on lipid sources, indeed, this is one of the reasons that peanuts in very large quantities used as a mass bait by all anglers on a lake cause problems... you cannot get any problems using a balanced protein bait... why do you think receptors that can detect Aminos/peptide chains are present on carp? there are no receptors for lipids.. any lipids would be on the surface anyway........

This was going down a new route.... why stop???

Which post?

"We're talking about many facets of 'attraction' when we look at why herbs and spices work in boiled carps baits. pH differentials as already mentioned, you wont find an effective spice or spice blend that does not elicit a change in pH if put into solution.

This is just part of it in my opinion, we can isolate amino derivatives from the aforementioned groups, we can also identify powerful alkaloids which can possibly have interactions with a carp’s nervous system. Couple this to possible immune augmentation and digestive aids and we begin to see the story behind why herbs and spices are particularly useful in boiled baits"

That one...

Are we talking herbal medicines?

In part, or perhaps to be a little more specific, derivatives of plants that promote digestion? You must ask yourself what is it that you want from any bait???

partial to a bit of erb myself

You must ask yourself what is it that you want from any bait???


Atraction and good for carp


As for what part herbs/spices play i think its PH related maybe get some which give off a ph signal very close to their natural foods like bloodworm giving off amonia which will give away their presence amoung the "chod" ?

"which give off a ph signal very close to their natural foods like bloodworm giving off amonia"

That takes care of the alkaline side of things then.. Carp attraction/feeding triggers are centered arond pH differentials and Amino Acid detection, how many baits focus on this? or maybe do by accident?

does anyone remember hutchies mixed herbs

I think i need a pepsi cola

university of Rhode island has some interesting stuff going on!

US patent # 7,557,097 B2

Roto, Few Thai 'sticks' would be VERY nice , used to give us the raging munchies, should do same for carp

nothing is grown in Thailand it comes from Laos, Cambodia or Indonesia