Pete ,
If it was only that simple for us mortals.. I can split the 2 up to a certain point but then it all gets messy & I end up with both being the same….
Either the feeding trigger must be precise, or in some sort of sequence & stability for it not to attract through Ionization.
I thought of such a sequence once... but to try & comprehend it was beyond my sanity…
I’ll stick with p/h change, Amino Acids & ionization for the time being..

ionization

I roll my bait outside in a shed thats got to be positivly negative LOL

Bivyman..Looks like you have all options covered lol

"However, all this pales somewhat into insignificance if you actually believe that a carp has the ability to 'recognise' through association a food source".

From the continued searching & constant release of the next wonder bait.. I reckon we must still be struggling with being able to deliver the above.. Looks like that wall is going to be around for a bit longer.

The trouble with bait is that most carp anglers believe all the hype that goes with the release of something not previously widely known (I refuse to say new as there is nothing that hasn't been tried)

If a bait supplies all the necessary food signals together with investigation triggers, that's as good as it gets.... they investigate the source of the food signals and eat... I will admit there is a slight blurring with food signals and investigation triggers but there is a difference...

Most baits out there do not address food signals, hence you can get a reaction to them, but they are treated with caution....

If I get time I will construct an article and see if anyone has the balls to publish it... Carp addict is no more sadly and I'm not sure anyone would put an unedited version in print...

look forward to that Pete any idea where i can get copies of your series in carp addict ? the mag and website are no more !

Pete,
Surely we're not been lead down the garden path

“Several EOG studies have shown that the sensitivity & magnitude of the olfactory epithelial responses vary with gender, life cycle stage or seasonality”

“The amino Acids are indicators of food. In Cyprinids, the freshness of a food source is perceived through nucleotides, such as ATP. “

Nucleotides also the building blocks of

The wall kept getting higher!! So I shall have to put the books back in the loft again before all simplicity is lost .. At least they are still partial to the odd tin of

I shall call it a day now before you tire of my ineptitude on the subject… Thanks for taking the time & if you ever pen such a parchment.. send us the abrupt unedited version

I was out fishing Pete. Don't worry, I can handle you any time of the day.

First of all i'd like to empahasize (yet again) we're talking bait here huh? So that's not carp food. I make a difference in that. To me that makes sense, because fish in a 'closed cicuit' (a tank or garden pond) need a full nutritious diet. Makes sense. I totally agree with you on what i read and of what made sense to me. All the documents we have read on attraction with carp are based on studies in closed cicuits/natural invironments. So if we are making carp food i would say: Way to go!

Now the situation we are alle more interested in: Angling in big lakes with many other anglers to compete with us...To illustrate what i am trying to say, I shall give an example from my own bait experiments. Reason for this were the poor results in full summer the productive angling times around spawning time.

The years previous i had fished a bait with a nutrient balance of -more or less- equal parts (whatever's left of it after boiling anyway). So 33% protein, 33% fat, 33% carb. Of course some vit's etc. I used the bait all year around with good results. Looking at it now this doesn't surprise me. Also i calculated 4 cal per gramme of carb, which should have been 1,6. Concidering that we could say i was using a food bait. With hardly any other anglers at the lake I was happily catching.

Around 2000 things were changing. The lake got crowded and my catch rate went down. I accepted it as being competition, till one day I decided to fish baits with different 'attraction signals'. So one rod with a very high protein fishmeal bait, one with cooked spuds and one with a very oily nut bait. Protein, carb, lipids. I waited till after the spawning time 'protein period' and started fishing three rods on the same plateau, switching after each take. The results were very clear:

70% of the time the protein won. Was to be expected. Every time the carb wouldn't stand a chance. It did 20% of the time though without the protein having a chance. I had several nights of fishing the little spuds outfished the protein 5-0. I was amazed. From 2001 on I have been able to repeat this Pete. Every year when the lake fishes poorly and all the lads are complaining, i have a few weeks of happy angling on particles and potatoes.

So... since i can repeat this every year, i assume we could call this sience. Carp BAIT isn't carp FOOD.

So Pete, according to me your view on bait is a bit oldfashioned ok? I hope one day you'll accept the fact bait is a supplement to the nutritious situation in the lake at that moment in time. Ans since this one is changing all the time,, the best bait is not to be produced, but is chosen at that moment in time by the angler.

This is the last time I spent energy on your never ending quest for something that doesn't exist.

Glad i jumped out of this thread when i did...as understanding all this stuff on bait seems equal to understanding women..

Mitsz,
You are totally missing the point....

You have to first understand what a carp can and cannot detect to make a bait... Take your spuds, what can they detect? certainly not potato starch (polysaccharide)... Vitamins do not attract (all except A,D, E & K are rendered useless by boiling anyway)

The original subject was N-Butyric... it is not a food signal but will in the right water pH cause an investigation... there are hundreds of these products, literally hundreds, but they will never be feed inducers.

I am not interested in feeding fish, I am interested in producing baits that cause a fish to feed, we may well be singing from the same hymn sheet on this, just from different angles... Unless your carbs are in sugar and mono or disaccharide, it cannot be effectively used.. a ratio of protein/carb/lipids is not the way to go, look further into what constitutes those food groups and what can actually be used/detected... That's my angle on things...

It's actually quite simple...

"Don't worry, I can handle you any time of the day."

Don't treat this as a competition to score points, it isn't, I am genuinely interested in bait and any persons thoughts on it, if you want to, let's get a discussion going, who knows who might join in???