Right then,now i know this stuff stinks to high heaven and had the misfortune to spill some on my kitchen floor the other day,good job i aint got a mrs at home!!!

But was wondering,can you overdose on this stuff and what are the effective levels of inclusioin in say a pot of pop ups and does anyone know of any winning flavour combinations with this gear????

Regards,Dean

Attraction.
Would of thought a smart baitmaker would no what it was all about what with mixing ph's and enzymes and what not...?
quick glance.
I believe n butryic changes ph in bait. Making baits more acidic and (being soluble)gives of positive food signals that carp respond to such as the aminos givern of by inverterbrates.(natural carp grub). People say the more the acidic the more the signal but sometimes works the other way. Such as creams and the like being alkaline. People say there could be a perfect ph siganl to suit any givern lake. More bull censored....

Use the stinky but dont put to much in.imo...

It has a fairly weak acidic pH and contains no amino acid 'food signals'. How does that attract carp then?

[quote=carpy d4n] Attraction.
Would of thought a smart baitmaker would no what it was all about what with mixing ph's and enzymes and what not...?
quick glance.

Now ,not having used the substance in any form i was looking for a sensible starter level in pop ups.I did not ask for its ph or acidic note or your obvious sarcasm fella,Us bait makers dont know the ins and outs of every available substance in the bait world,its a learning curve! So im soooooooo sorry if i may of seemed a little Dense

As a starting point.

As high as 6 drops per egg in single hookbait popups (in combination with a flavour)

As low as 1 drop per egg as a background smell in a food bait.

Either way best to avoid human contact for a couple of days after making bait with this in.

Right now that I've basically become a UCN consultant, shall we say 5kg of enzyme for that titbit?

Thanks kipper,much appreciated,my fishing partner wants to experiment!!!!

Cheques in the post mate!!!

Baits work despite N-Butyric, not because of it... apart from pH differential to the water (and there are far more effective ones) what is there....

Dean
I would keep to low levels with N Butyric,Make some baits with different levels fella and let the fish show you... if you put a very small amount on to your tounge you will know that this is not to be over loaded .

Yes Pete,we know there are but little si wants to have a play so i said i would get the info to him!!!!!!

He reads too many magazines!!!!!!

Okay...you first

A credible producer of quality pop ups said to me that it should only be used in a winter bait or pop - up(he used it in all his pop-ups),it's not a flavour or attractor but allows the bait to release it's properties at low water temps(due to it being a carbon acid ?), 1-2 drops per egg.

Why don't you try 2 pop-up mixes,one with and one without,bung it to 2 mates on the same winter water and don't tell them who has the Nba pop ups..there may be a trend.

1 Egg
5-10 ml ea flavour.
2ml clear sweetner.
level teaspoon betaine.
1-2 drops Nba.
Colour of your choice.
Richworth pop up mix.


j.

No worries fella,it tastes very sweet...I always try the taste of the bait in what in using...

Im touched if i'd be putting Nba on my tongue mate,black pepper oil's bad enough,i'll never do that again......say's he..reaching for the dropper.

j.

"I always try the taste of the bait in what in using"

Why??? What you taste and what a carp can detect are poles apart...

had some in my bait last season...jeese! makes me sick just thinking about using it

But do you feel it made a difference Timber????

didnt notice any change of activity in the water i was fishing with it ,tho fish are hard to come by in there at the best of times..i thought an unflavoured plain poultry protein meal and groundnut groundbait did the job better..they were certainly there for that

maybe it's time we look at 'attractors' from the baits perspective instead of the carp. In my opinion the bait in the water has 'to make sense'.

When a protein-rich bait is thrown into the lake, it is very unlikely to produce any Nba. It is a substance that is expected to 'sprout out off' vegetarian substances like rotting roots etc. Nothing to do with protein. Still loads of us are expecting it to work on a rich fishmeal bait. 'Fermentalism' would be a better approach. I use it on a low protein bait with fermented, cooked grain-paste as a binding base and am happy with my results.

Look at the bait gentlemen, not the carp. It'll eat anything that makes sense...

Only my opinion but .

I thought that the ph change around the manmade bait wether it be an acidic or alkalie change. Will trigger the same recepter signals in the same way that natural grub gives of a ph change ie (Replecating an amino signal).. I imagien again only my thoughts that in different lakes the different naturals will all give of different ph values or changes in the water. Hence some baits will work better than others?

right.

oops. forgot a bit.

I make a strawberry flavoured birdfood bait that is really good on many waters, but in the park lake behind my house it acts really poorly. A fishmeal bait works really well though. Just the way it is. On another lake I fish it's the other way around.

simple facts

ok,up to now although i`m not too enthusiastic about tampering with bait when/where variables are extreme enough on any given stressed out water and time being excessively scarce..without checking the ph of any given water first..n.b acid changes a ph up only(have i got that bit right)..and what additive(thats safe) would need to be added to decrease a baits ph..is there owt that can do this a little..or is the change one dimensional for the trigger??

"maybe it's time we look at 'attractors' from the baits perspective instead of the carp"

An 'attractor' must be capable of being detected by a carp for it to be 'attractive', obvious I know, but we seem to be losing the plot somewhat....

Forget boilies, load of biollix, get on the naturals, they kick seven shades of shite out of boilies


4 fish to 23.5lbs yesterday, in 4 hours...........


Seriously, I will NOT be using boiled baits again for a longgggggggggggggggggg time

not so strange if you keep banging the head against the wall.

maybe it wasn't really the right choice of words and should I have been a little more specific. But hey... You and your amino's. waste of time

But hey... You and your amino's. waste of time.. Care to expand on that comment Mitsz ?

can someone fill in this part of the jigsaw for me below???
its a decent q,come on!..and probably the only one required...or is it irrelevant to attraction and am i better off fishing with shiny clean teeth

"You and your amino's. waste of time"

Fcuk me.. I'm going to be converted... So, Aminos (specific ones I will admit) do not attract... what, pray tell me, is a food signal to a carp?

pH differential is an investigation trigger, it does not induce feeding, it is what the carp finds at the end of that pH trail that does... pH also has a bearing on aminos, salinity also is an investigation trigger.... and also has a bearing on aminos.....

Banging your head against a wall is nice when it stops, it's just the cause of banging your head against a wall never seems to go away...

However, all this pales somewhat into insignificance if you actually believe that a carp has the ability to 'recognise' through association a food source...

thanks a lot pete..thnk i understand a little more now..its all coming together..i`ve finished my jigsaw and developed the next album cover should the `stone roses` reform

i think this side of the bait stuffs are better left to the experts..the ones who know what they`re doing with the edge.. and a view of competing for a place in the future...thats unless someone should clone me approx 5 times to waste my time testing...and if..thats possible,i want 5 cheryl coles as my bivvy maids...thanks

As already stated,it's not an attractor (Nba),it allows the attractors to work at low water temp...

j.

what attractors???
there goes me stone roses cover

Found this which may help?


The presence of some amino acids and dipeptides under the conditions of the salt-induced peptide formation reaction (aqueous solution at 85 °C, Cu(II) and NaCl) has been found to catalyze the formation of homopeptides of other amino acids, which are otherwise produced only in traces or not at all by this reaction. The condensation of Val, Leu and Lys to form their homodipeptides can occur to a considerable extent due to catalytic effects of other amino acids and related compounds, among which glycine, histidine, diglycine and diketopiperazine exhibit the most remarkable activity. These findings also lead to a modification of the table of amino acid sequences preferentially formed by the salt-induced peptide formation (SIPF) reaction, previously used for a comparison with the sequence preferences in membrane proteins of primitive organisms

... Found this which may help?

not in the slightest bivvyman but am forming a better understanding ...slowly..very slowly!!
keep it coming tho folks,what i really need is the chain of events from a fishes point of view from the beginning..and hopefully in penguin book format..pmsl

Obviously i can more than likely be put right and im talking crap


The way i saw it is its a chain reaction ?

Some aminos when they get together form a salt of some sort which in turn reacts with something to form peptides which starts the formation of homodipeptides (building blocks?) of other useful aminos from primitive organisms that carp can detect

Timber..Some of articles are Old so I have put a dates on them ..Other bait Boffs on here might be able to validate if their content is still of value today before you set off on a quest to find them
Tim Paisley's are written in English.. Keith Sykes in Part Boffin..

Nutritional Recognition..Tim Paisley..Carp Fisher 4 Summer 1983
Positive Hydrogen..Tim Paisley.. Carp Fisher 5 Winter 1983
Nature's Design... Tim Paisley.. Carp Now & Then ( Rod Hutchinson)
Heavy Chemistry..Carp.. Tim Paisley & Friends

Carp & their Environment..Simon Horton.. Carp.. Tim Paisley & Friends
Various Chapters in Carp Now & Then, Carp book, The Carp strikes Back..Rod Hutchinson

Olfaction & the Procurment of food in Cyprinus Carpio (Use & Abuse of the Chemical in Carp Baits)…Keith Sykes..Carp Fisher 1 November 1981
Bait & Intent …Keith Sykes..Carp Fisher 3 Summer 1982
Chemoreception…Keith Sykes..Carp Fisher 4 Summer 1983
Proteins & Carbohydrates…Keith Sykes..Carp Fisher 5 Winter 1983
Lipids, Flavours Vitamins & Conclusions..Keith Sykes..Carp Fisher 6 Summer 1984

Chemoreception..Charlie Dally..Carpworld 16 1991

Some Bloke called Pete B done a few in the latter Carp Addict's..after the 1st one (a Classic) I thought he mellowed out a bit

E Books & Articles by Tim Richardson on bait making

No doubt there are many more but after that it's down to the Boffin Books..
Have fun…But don't get to caught up in it or you might lose sight of what a simple game it can be

thanks a lot fellas,i`ve arrived at the destination now and i`m not travelling any further..i think i`m just gonna enjoy without finding out too much.. keeping the mystery alive i hope and cheers for the wise words

"I thought he mellowed out a bit"

I thought I got more 'controversial'... at least Dean thought so... to the extent that you can't say that came up a few times....

Seriously though, many of these 'super' ingredients are more by luck than judgement, NBA is compatable with certain things (I do not use it as it does not fit any bait I use) treat it as a form of catalyst and you won't go far wrong.... what does it effect is the question...

This stuff is interesting to the .00001% interested in chemical formulation of baits and chemoreception potential.. no-one will give a really straight answer on this as we are still learning....

Chemoreception in Fishes.... T J Hara


That's where a lot of articles are derived from... rightly or wrongly...

I enjoyed the abruptness of the 1st article .. I reckon Dean must have hit the panic button after that one

Chemoreception in Fishes.... T J Hara… expensive.. Sensory systems.. Neuroscience..T J Hara & B Zielinski.. A slightly cheaper option. Both of which I can only understand about 1 word in 5

Knowing Bass.. Keith A Jones understandable but with one glaring issue

Perhaps we are losing sight of the difference between an investigation trigger (pH change for example) and a feeding trigger.... both are important, it's just the distance that matters....

Mitsz.... you have gone quiet...

Pete ,
If it was only that simple for us mortals.. I can split the 2 up to a certain point but then it all gets messy & I end up with both being the same….
Either the feeding trigger must be precise, or in some sort of sequence & stability for it not to attract through Ionization.
I thought of such a sequence once... but to try & comprehend it was beyond my sanity…
I’ll stick with p/h change, Amino Acids & ionization for the time being..

ionization

I roll my bait outside in a shed thats got to be positivly negative LOL

Bivyman..Looks like you have all options covered lol

"However, all this pales somewhat into insignificance if you actually believe that a carp has the ability to 'recognise' through association a food source".

From the continued searching & constant release of the next wonder bait.. I reckon we must still be struggling with being able to deliver the above.. Looks like that wall is going to be around for a bit longer.

The trouble with bait is that most carp anglers believe all the hype that goes with the release of something not previously widely known (I refuse to say new as there is nothing that hasn't been tried)

If a bait supplies all the necessary food signals together with investigation triggers, that's as good as it gets.... they investigate the source of the food signals and eat... I will admit there is a slight blurring with food signals and investigation triggers but there is a difference...

Most baits out there do not address food signals, hence you can get a reaction to them, but they are treated with caution....

If I get time I will construct an article and see if anyone has the balls to publish it... Carp addict is no more sadly and I'm not sure anyone would put an unedited version in print...

look forward to that Pete any idea where i can get copies of your series in carp addict ? the mag and website are no more !

Pete,
Surely we're not been lead down the garden path

“Several EOG studies have shown that the sensitivity & magnitude of the olfactory epithelial responses vary with gender, life cycle stage or seasonality”

“The amino Acids are indicators of food. In Cyprinids, the freshness of a food source is perceived through nucleotides, such as ATP. “

Nucleotides also the building blocks of

The wall kept getting higher!! So I shall have to put the books back in the loft again before all simplicity is lost .. At least they are still partial to the odd tin of

I shall call it a day now before you tire of my ineptitude on the subject… Thanks for taking the time & if you ever pen such a parchment.. send us the abrupt unedited version

I was out fishing Pete. Don't worry, I can handle you any time of the day.

First of all i'd like to empahasize (yet again) we're talking bait here huh? So that's not carp food. I make a difference in that. To me that makes sense, because fish in a 'closed cicuit' (a tank or garden pond) need a full nutritious diet. Makes sense. I totally agree with you on what i read and of what made sense to me. All the documents we have read on attraction with carp are based on studies in closed cicuits/natural invironments. So if we are making carp food i would say: Way to go!

Now the situation we are alle more interested in: Angling in big lakes with many other anglers to compete with us...To illustrate what i am trying to say, I shall give an example from my own bait experiments. Reason for this were the poor results in full summer the productive angling times around spawning time.

The years previous i had fished a bait with a nutrient balance of -more or less- equal parts (whatever's left of it after boiling anyway). So 33% protein, 33% fat, 33% carb. Of course some vit's etc. I used the bait all year around with good results. Looking at it now this doesn't surprise me. Also i calculated 4 cal per gramme of carb, which should have been 1,6. Concidering that we could say i was using a food bait. With hardly any other anglers at the lake I was happily catching.

Around 2000 things were changing. The lake got crowded and my catch rate went down. I accepted it as being competition, till one day I decided to fish baits with different 'attraction signals'. So one rod with a very high protein fishmeal bait, one with cooked spuds and one with a very oily nut bait. Protein, carb, lipids. I waited till after the spawning time 'protein period' and started fishing three rods on the same plateau, switching after each take. The results were very clear:

70% of the time the protein won. Was to be expected. Every time the carb wouldn't stand a chance. It did 20% of the time though without the protein having a chance. I had several nights of fishing the little spuds outfished the protein 5-0. I was amazed. From 2001 on I have been able to repeat this Pete. Every year when the lake fishes poorly and all the lads are complaining, i have a few weeks of happy angling on particles and potatoes.

So... since i can repeat this every year, i assume we could call this sience. Carp BAIT isn't carp FOOD.

So Pete, according to me your view on bait is a bit oldfashioned ok? I hope one day you'll accept the fact bait is a supplement to the nutritious situation in the lake at that moment in time. Ans since this one is changing all the time,, the best bait is not to be produced, but is chosen at that moment in time by the angler.

This is the last time I spent energy on your never ending quest for something that doesn't exist.

Glad i jumped out of this thread when i did...as understanding all this stuff on bait seems equal to understanding women..

Mitsz,
You are totally missing the point....

You have to first understand what a carp can and cannot detect to make a bait... Take your spuds, what can they detect? certainly not potato starch (polysaccharide)... Vitamins do not attract (all except A,D, E & K are rendered useless by boiling anyway)

The original subject was N-Butyric... it is not a food signal but will in the right water pH cause an investigation... there are hundreds of these products, literally hundreds, but they will never be feed inducers.

I am not interested in feeding fish, I am interested in producing baits that cause a fish to feed, we may well be singing from the same hymn sheet on this, just from different angles... Unless your carbs are in sugar and mono or disaccharide, it cannot be effectively used.. a ratio of protein/carb/lipids is not the way to go, look further into what constitutes those food groups and what can actually be used/detected... That's my angle on things...

It's actually quite simple...

"Don't worry, I can handle you any time of the day."

Don't treat this as a competition to score points, it isn't, I am genuinely interested in bait and any persons thoughts on it, if you want to, let's get a discussion going, who knows who might join in???

Can i just ask pete b.
How do you no what carp can and cant detect how have you got your results on this? You quote vitamins . But what test have you done? Im not having a go more curious.

This could be intresting

kind regards Jeff

My word this is heavy reading.

To my eyes a good bait will always outfish a poor bait, but any bait fished in the right spots has a good chance.

All this ph and nucleotide (spelling) business....what on earth is that all about? Whatever gives you confidence I suppose but what a load of twaddle.

The only scientific tests that really matter are those carried out in the field, ie actual angling. The best anglers I have seen, many of whom are nationally known, catch due to watercraft and the use of a good reliable, uncomplicated bait....wonder if Terry Hearn spends much time worrying about ph etc, don't think so!

The receptors in carp have been quite well researched and what they can detect is common scientific fact.... anyone can do searches on the internet on japanese/Australian and indeed UK scientific papers on this subject.

"To my eyes a good bait will always outfish a poor bait"

Of course it will, but a good bait is a good bait why?? you may not care to learn about the why? but sometimes we stumble upon it by accident and sometimes by design, I actually prefer by design and that means understanding what carp can detect and what is a 'feeding trigger' to them... A good angler will always catch fish, natural watercraft and ability will show through, but combine that with a bait that is emitting 'feeding triggers' and you have a different scenario...

All this ph and nucleotide (spelling) business....what on earth is that all about? Whatever gives you confidence I suppose but what a load of twaddle.

In Cyprinids, the freshness of a food source is perceived through nucleotides, such as ATP

ATP..To the best of my limited knowledge.. Some part of a transport system for chemical energy involved with metabolism Do I need to know the in & outs of it ..Not really, but to me it reads that fish might have a preference either way for the freshness of a food source.

p/H.

A small line from Carp & their Environment written by..Simon Horton in the book Carp!..by Tim Paisley & Friends.
The hydrogen content of water has massive consequences on the efficiency of our boiled bait.

No boffin or super Angler here.. just someone trying to pick the right key for the right lock on the right day

The receptors in carp have been quite well researched and what they can detect is common scientific fact....


I think i should put more sweetness into my bait i dont want to send the carp into a diabetic coma

Great posts guys and good to see a few thinking anglers still about but come on be real. We boil the xxxx out of most of our baits and I really cant see many of these subtleties surviving the boiling or freezing process.

I remember Townley bigging up the scientific argument and getting into a right slanging match with the richworth and semo boys back in the day. He was all prepared to take Savay apart.....oh how they laughed when he left tail between legs.

The reality is that on the hardest of waters time and time again the big girls fall to tigers or the old red fishmeals, probably boiled to xxxx but fished by good anglers on the right spots.

You simply cannot provoke fish into a feeding frenzy on natural waters, you will catch them when they choose to feed which on the majority of my waters is early mornings in the summer months and about once a month it seems in the winter.

I don't, obviously, claim to be a bait buff and have gone out of my way not to be. None of the top anglers in this country imo claim to be bait scientists and most gave up on this a long time ago. PH and nucleotoids (spelling again!) are a very poor second to walking the banks and putting a good bait in the right place at the right time.

Effervescentowl…nice to see someone else contribute…

Pete’s & my views are different, but follow along the same lines to a certain point. He has an ability to able decipher boffin language better than me & has already forgotten more about bait than I will ever know. But at this moment in time due to my ineptitude on the subject I’m skeptical of some of his views.. but in agreement with others

“Most bait out there do not address food signals, hence you can get a reaction to them, but they are treated with caution...”.

So if the bait is not supplying a food signal.. what is it supplying… are we just paying for a p/h change ?? which is something I can knock up in the kitchen for next to nothing to achieve the same… I won’t throw nutrition in to the ring as it will only set off the FLAA debate again..

The food signal theory sounds simple.. Nature tells me it exists.. but I’m skeptical to if it can be delivered or exist in a bait as we currently know.. But yet we still manage to catch them..
Pete.. I know will not give up the answers or thoughts easily.. Coz he’s like that but sometimes he does gives a pointer

Nucleotides. They are also molecules that make up DNA…. DNA.. I believe is linked to … Several EOG studies have shown that the sensitivity & magnitude of the olfactory epithelial responses vary with gender, life cycle stage or seasonality…
We maybe able to temporary fool the system which is good enough. But to have the ability to re-write DNA & change a few 100 million of years of inherited search images might take a bit longer..or as you put it.. You simply cannot provoke fish into a feeding frenzy on natural waters,

Unless the food signal theory holds true & can be delivered in a bait ..

Back to the real world.. all the above is just us talking bait B****88,
as before I'm not a Boffin or involved with bait companies, I mostly fish very short periods, using a very simple style.. Often using a multitude of simple baits.. but over the years I have noticed that what ends up on the hook often seems to make a difference to if the net gets wet or not & is not always down to angling ability/location.. that personally.. I can prove ..

ATP is adenosine triphosphate, a chemical broken down to give energy in times of stress in humans...

You are all overcomplicating a very simple thing, this has nothing to do with changing a carp's method of detecting food, merely exploiting it..

As humans, we feed by sight and smell, take a nice curry, looks good, smells great, tastes excellent, we cannot tell if it contains protein, carbs or fats, it is a learned effect that we like curry (or not)..

A carp has none of the above in our sense, it has receptors all over its body to detect food, the exact signals are well documented, it is just getting that into a bait that causes some a problem, the greatest is amino acids (certain ones)

There are by products of decay that will cause a carp to investigate and a carp's method of investigation is to mouth a substance in the absence of arms, hands and fingers, that is where rig efficiency plays its part, but a bait emitting the correct signals gives a more positive response, even in semi torpid fish.

I am still learning he correct methods of replicating food signals, I am some of the way there with enzymes, but this is a difficult road to go down as controlling the bait's characteristics is very awkward. FLAA is relevant to utilisation of the bait and is key to the nutritional recognition theory should you believe that.. however it is also key to the enzyme route as it will release the correct aminos...

I hope this goes some way to simplifying my thoughts on bait..

"We boil the xxxx out of most of our baits and I really cant see many of these subtleties surviving the boiling or freezing process"

I forget who originally said that boiling baits destroyed them but I have a nice bullet for them to put them out of their misguided misery..

The boiling and freezing processes can be beneficial.... except to vitamins, which you should not need to include in a balanced bait anyway...

Myths and legends which have become facts in carp fishing lore... Hundreds of them and most concern bait....

But bait emitting the correct signals gives a more positive response, even in semi torpid fish.
The key being correct signals me thinks. . Interesting how different mixes of A/A’s create different locomotive responses..

Still think there something in Several EOG studies,not along the lines of DNA . But what affect these changes have on perception or sensitivity.. for example does taste increase with age ? To put it very simple & poorly

The boiling and freezing processes can be beneficial.... except to vitamins, which you should not need to include in balanced bait anyway

Funny you should mention that .. It was another one of your pointers recently that lead to a different train of thought; I finally now have an idea on how to achieve it.. But there is one little issue with increased Digestibility that worries me.. but it does Open Up other avenues & fits in to my limited time approach well

No need for a nice bullet for me yet..But give it time if this thread carries on much longer

Myths and legends… are what fishing is made off ….

"Interesting how different mixes of A/A’s create different locomotive responses.. "

That it is...... understand what a carp can detect and all becomes as clear as mud... factor in salinity and pH and you have the answer.... still working on it, but getting ever closer.....

What companies release as 'ultimate baits' are simply 'previously unknown' investigation triggers.... most are either salty or acidic, in rare cases they are alkaline, they are all however, just investigation triggers....

Jesus,this only started with a simple question......

Peter,how many times do you have to repeat yourself?

You seem to go round in circles mate!

Give them that want to know the basics,then,let them find out the rest,a little information to someone with an understanding?

Dean,
Times have changed. There is no need to rely know anymore as long as Anglers are happy with what they are paying for & results are forth coming on what ever they decided to use

What companies release as 'ultimate baits' are simply 'previously unknown' investigation triggers.... most are either salty or acidic, in rare cases they are alkaline, they are all however, just investigation triggers....

Sounds a rather damming verdict of the current bait scene , I would ask you to expand more ..but feel you maybe on the receiving end of the silver bullet delivered from behind a fence on a grassy knoll.


.Plus quite a few clues are available in past threads.

Always enjoy the enlightened chats & banter , but I really have to call it a day or we will be going around in circles for weeks talking bait B****88,

Still skeptical thou...

"Still skeptical thou..."

Don't be sceptical, understand, it will bring you more fish...

Dean, circles are complete..... but I will restrict myself to pointers in future...

I have no real opinion on the current bait scene except that innovation and thought has disappeared... except for a few minor players...

Seems this post has decended into the same old bull$hit about "ultimate bait" and has detracted from the original post about NBA,strikes me as though none of you know the reason for which this additive works and the reason for which it is added to any bait in the first place.

We have not reached "cold water" period in this country yet and are getting there slowly,give it a month or so and we might be there,thats when NBA comes into it's own.

Dean,ask John Baker or Tim Hodges why NBA works.

j.

because of its sub-zero melting point, maybe?

"strikes me as though none of you know the reason for which this additive works and the reason for which it is added to any bait in the first place"

Care to enlighten us then...

Have already said i believe it has a use in a cold water environment,allows release of flavours or attractors at low water temp,overflavoured pops with Nba will catch fish. I've never used it in a food bait and wouldn't.

How many of the top bait co's who produce a winter food bait add it...i think can think of only one and it's special order through rollin baits.(Big Bill's trigga pineapple.)

Should be used in pop ups only.The likes of Solars/Nutrabaits Pineapple n Butric catch fish in the cold...year after year...there it is.

I like a pot shot to one egg,3 drops nba,richworth plain pop up mix...ooohhh...fruity esters...bit o cheese...tell me you don't love a cracker...bit of chedder...and a bit of pinneapple and i will call you a fibber pete,it's a poor third to pickle or piccalli i know...but..

Have used both John Bakers and Nutrabaits over the years.

Never mind all the chemical hoo haaa..and why ?...it works,don't know why..just does.

j.

I know a geezar who puts it in his summer and winter hnv baits.. A quality bait to boot.

Can someone elaberate on expensive essential oils and why they are added to baits ?

They are natural ingredients and some are excellent carp attractors....garlic, leek, clove, bergamot, black pepper..they are expensive due to the costs of extraction and refinment...but worth the investment...

Quite cheap off fleabay

"Never mind all the chemical hoo haaa"

I like to know why I include things... it's not that complicated.. NBA has no place in a bait I construct as it adds nothing that cannot be accomplished by altering the pH.... by far cheaper means...

The NBA you buy is a flavour.... a fairly horrible one to use, try tincture of asofeotida if you are into masochism... Belachin comes a poor second to that one....

And there was i thinking enlightenment had been achieved.

Asofeotida and black pepper as a flavour combo have caught many a barbel on the kennet in paste form.

Asofeotida is a flavour in it's own right as it's classed as an essential oil(from the onion family ?) and is very similar to what is used in ragi,the paste used for mahseer.
NBa is not an essential oil and not classed as a flavour.

The two are very different,it may stink but there is some form of reaction between Nba and cold water in high attract pop ups.


j.

"The two are very different"

Yes, they are, oils are insoluble in water and therefore cannot be classed as a 'flavour' in terms of a carp.... a 'flavour' as we understand it with our very limited chemoreception is not the same in a fish... before anyone hypothesises about what constitutes an attractor to carp, surely there should be a basic understanding of what a carp can detect in the first place???? NBA reacts with cold water? care to expand? under normal circumstances, reactions increase with heat exponentially...

J,

you mention it should be used in pop-ups only, by this I presume you mean single hookbaits only? I cant see how whether a bait is on the bottom or popped up a couple of inches would make any difference, or am I missing something

Incidentally I did use NBA in a food bait for a while (at one drop per egg)and caught reasonably well, don't get me wrong I didn't set the world alight but it didn't seem to put them off.

Maybe it was one of those in-spite of, rather than because of things.

Finally jibbed it when I had to redecorate my study after stupidly airdrying 10kg in there!

Don't know if this helps Pete?




PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

PHYSICAL STATE clear liquid

MELTING POINT -7 - -5 C
BOILING POINT 163 - 165 C

SPECIFIC GRAVITY 0.958
SOLUBILITY IN WATER miscible
pH

VAPOR DENSITY 3
AUTOIGNITION
425 C

REFRACTIVE INDEX
1.3969
NFPA RATINGS
Health: 3 Flammability: 2 Reactivity: 0
FLASH POINT 71 C

STABILITY Stable under ordinary conditions

Would anyone on here class this as an accurate description of NBA?



The reason I ask is I used it in a food bait and did pretty well on it over large beds of bait, using it at 1 drop per egg in conjunction with a sweetener and another flavour. All catches in warm weather.

I know sod all about bait ingredients at a molecular level so have to rely on what I'm told.

It actually doesn't help... unless you know what a carp can detect...

"The reason I ask is I used it in a food bait and did pretty well on it"

...and you don't think that the 'food bait' had anything to do with it?

Lots of ingredients in baits are put forward as the next revolution in bait construction... only a carp cannot detect them... how is that particular ingredient going to attract when a carp cannot detect it or has very limited detection in that area??

I'm not trying to be obtuse, just questioning what is being spoon fed to the masses...

just questioning what is being spoon fed to the masses...

A couple more for the NBA Spoon..

When combined with alcohol produces an ester

In the past.. used as a trigger for Bromelain

"When combined with alcohol produces an ester"

And an ester,being merely another investigation trigger?

Bromelain.extracted from pineapple,in humans is used as a natural digetsive aid and anti-coagulant,its relevence or effectiveness in carp baits is to say the least,fairly low!

"Think fish".not Humans!!!!!

What pete is trying to get across,is that substances that are often hailed as super ingredients are often just investigation triggers,their attraction being either highly acidic or alkaline.Nothing more!

I have read postings like this over many years and they continue to baffle me time and time again.

I was blessed with taste buds, a sense of smell and a fairly complex brain to process all the information that comes with the above. Smells good, brain tells me to eat, tastes good = smile on face. An equally complex body processes it all and extracts what it needs and dumps the rest on waist line or out of the body as waste.

Carp are not blessed with the brain capacity to process all the information.

They are a truely wild animal and eat to survive. Pretty much end of. They cannot tell a carrot from a cake. They have no idea what a flavour is.

They find a food source and eat it because if they dont they will die.

It really is a fools folly to apply any form of human comparision to a carps diet and what it can detect.

kind regards Jeff

Or i suppose you can just listen to Jeff,makes sense really,pigs of the lake,usually the first to utilise ANY abundent food source.........

BUT..........

Given a lake where everything is being chucked at them jeff and nothing is getting caught,or very little,when they are relying on naturals and finding their food by aminos,thats when a bait constructed along those lines comes into its own!!!!! Happy new year mate!!!!


H

1st up.. Happy New Year to all

its relevence or effectiveness in carp baits is to say the least,fairly low!

Interesting that..As it’s still included in a product... but I’m sure you can appreciate the relevance & thought behind it at the time

What pete is trying to get across,is that substances that are often hailed as super ingredients are often just investigation triggers,their attraction being either highly acidic or alkaline.Nothing more

I have pondered.. as some are highly Acidic or Alkaline if they have the ability to cause a hydrolysis of sorts ..Amongst other things... but the complexities of it are currently beyond my grasp & maybe achieved anyway by other means

Actually Dean in not a very good way, I was trying to back you, Pete and one or two others up fella.

appy new year to you as well buddy.

kind regards Jeff

Jeff,

Oh,and how is or was n.b.a used as a trigger for bromelain?......

Bromelain is classed as a proteolytic(digests proteins)a naturally occuring enzyme??????

Please explain mr moon???? Not trying to be funny,just need a relevent connection please?

Hi Dean ..sent you a PM

"When combined with alcohol produces an ester"


And i presume that ester is pineapple flavouring?


So adding nba will enhance pineapple flavoured baits at low temp?

Pm read and replied

Depends if the EA flavour you have used is pineapple,the addition of Nba type products to produce an ester reaction is used to "enhance" the flavour of many fruit based liquids.

Look at the molecular structure of both Nba and ethanol molecules,nearly identical in components,carbon,hydrogen and oxygen,to the extent that they almost cancel each other out,but not quite !

j.

"many fruit based liquids."

May I just add the word synthetic to that, place it where you feel most appropriate...

'Smell' to us is recognition based, carp have no such association, I go back to what a carp can detect.... circles, circles, nothing but circles, and no way out of the circle....

Carboxypeptidase beta has esterease properties... what does that mean?

You are looking at molecular structure, which is good, only ignoring what receptors a carp has to work with..

Interesting, recogition basis in fish, even the tabloids are onto it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ber-months.html

A carp can detect noise/music in fact anything that creates a vibration or molecular transfer of energy in water, I am talking about substances in the water they have no receptors to sense....

Lets talk about what they can sense then, lets say hypothetically that they can sense something in your bait, so lets say for arguments sake we could extend this associative basis to food recognition.

Lets do a bit of prebaiting

Orange juice from concentrate.

But they can detect natural sugars...developed through the fermentation process...?

Synthetic can go down here.

j.

They can detect monosaccharides.... I am not sure where you are going with this one Octopus...

Carboxypeptidase beta has esterease properties... what does that mean?

Pete,
I can only presume that by producing more free acids,properly via a line of mind numbing reactions the outcome will be.. further formation of esters??

Carboxypeptidases..

in this months improve your coarse fishing they use it to make a cheese paste and also with a bolie mix they say only use a small amount

'a small amount'

You've got to ask what a 'small amount' is.... funny or what.... relative to a kilo...... some people haven't a clue.....

]

Horrible stuff eughhh dont spill it on your self evil stuff smell it for foookkkiiin weeks

I bought a kilo of the stuff for around 8 quid around six years ago whilst I was still in the UK. I found it made absolutely no difference to any bait I was formulating winter or summer!

Pete is still nudging in exactly the same way he was 5 or 6 years ago! you have to have a place to start and then do the hard work yourself; the hard work involves you learning things and researching in such a way as to make things make sense to you yourself. Being told does not help things make sense

I am still dismayed by the fact that to some knowing why you do something bait wise and what that something consists of and why it works or does not work is not important to you. Why should always be the ultimate question.
Why bother to learn anything about fishing when you can go to the shop buy everything chuck it out and have a bivvy party!

Pete suggesting they use or even smell the devils dung was a little nasty

Roto.... nice to see you back again....

Devil's dung....

Why can't people look further than the smell that goes up their (vastly inferior to a carp's receptors) nose to assess a bait's effectiveness.... I do feel that I,m banging my head against a very sturdy brick wall at times..

It's getting worse for that though Pete with the way carp fishing has exploded. I think a lot of them just don't care as long as they catch and are out the house away from screaming kids and nagging wife. A lot also believe the absolute crap spouted in mags/on telly by people that know next to nowt, but because they are in a mag and are using so and so's gear/have their own company they must know what they are on about.

Being a science geek I like to know why, what and how but lack of spare time to research and test out things severely restricts me these days.

"Being a science geek I like to know why, what and how but lack of spare time to research and test out things severely restricts me these days"

There is very little science in understanding what a carp can detect.... it is all over the internet, a few chosen words and you have the answer.. and it has nothing to do with the sense of human smell... I am stating the obvious to you but speaking martian to most..... The magazines have a lot to answer for in terms of bait articles.. I have yet to read one that contains 'new' or sensible advice... most, if not all, are bait company biased..... and there's only three bait company heads that I wold trust....

My personal magazine/advertising fave is 'high leakage'...baits aren't broken pipes! Even better when the 'leakage' is just a propylene glycol based flavour.

High leakage is a load of crap spouted by people who know bugger all about simple physics, for anything to leech out, you need water in... that means the bait goes soft VERY quickly... anyone got a bait claimed to be high leakage that is still hard after 24 hours???

And your point Filthy about just what 'leaks' out is very very valid...

Osmosis