Dean
But by taking away the investigation trigger do we limit our baits to a narrow window of opportunity?

Maybe it’s a case of finding more suitable substances to trigger the investigation process instead of rocket fuel & solvents.. But will the carp learn to avoid these given time, say chilli for example IF it works along the same lines ..circles

My thoughts are based around something Mr Paisley wrote over 25 years ago regarding the significance of a p/h of 7 & the alterations triggered by flavours..mind blowing stuff

Its one of the reasons we chose the enzyme route,aminos being natural triggers to the carp we feel were the obvious answer,chilli is also added to alter the ph signal emmited and for that reason only.

carp cannot ignore aminos or else they would not be able to find their natural larders.

nAtural additives are the way forward,but,the really good ones are not cheap so in turn not commercially viable for the majority of big bait boys!!!

I think you'll find Nutrabaits have always gone down the natural ingredients and attractors road now for many years, Dean....I know I'm biased as a Nutrabaits man, but that is the truth....

I couldnt agree more with you paul on that point but......

What i am trying to say is,there are far more effective natural attractors available of which a few im sure mr cottam is aware of that would make a far better bait,both in terms of attraction and nutritional benefit,but due to profit margins,these are shelved in favour of lesser,so called attractors/investigation triggers!

Lets face it paul,you and me both know that its all about the dollar in this game for the big boys!!!

good stuff up to now and further away from my comprehension on bait and fish attractants..leave that stuff to you guys..

what d`ya reckon to this then???..this below is the breakdown of the complete diet and nutrients required apparantly for goldfish and with them being a member of the carp crew..

what would be in the other percentage left..???

and are we going overboard with the natural needs of a carp at hnv levels??


Protein 33.5%
Oil 12.0%
Ash 13.0%
Fibre 3.0%
Vitamin A 10,000 IU/kg,
Vitamin D3 2,400 IU/kg,
Vitamin E 500 IU/kg.

"???..this below is the breakdown of the complete diet and nutrients required apparantly for goldfish"

Protein.... now that's where it falls down, Protein is made from amino acids and different proteins have different amino acid profiles, a bait with 98% protien can be 1% useable to a carp, Some milk or soya based ingredients are a very good example of this....

Understand what a carp needs and build a bait around that...

Paul, Nutrabaits is a good company, claims of nutritional shelf life baits though....... I know marketing etc... and the b/sh1t that goes with it, so I'll put it down to that...

I know what you are saying here Pete, but the question is still valid and interesting. Presuming you have got your Amino profile as sorted as you can, are thses sort of figures banded about by the fish feed industry relevant to bait?

Considering that the carp/goldfish intended to be fed by this hypothetical diet will have no other food source, live in a confined and limited environment and cost will be a factor.

Are these figures really the ideal diet, or just the ideal financial compromise, cost-growth ratio for captive fish?

so,in simple terms for people like me..
the complete feed supplement is 33% protein to the fish and the other percentage is protein that the fish can`t utilise..is it same with bait ingredients..ones that boast 80% protein levels should state what protein in percentages is utilised by fish not humans..fish/carp might only get to utilise 1 to 33% unless the protein is correct only for the carp..

i can see how a diet of that above would benefit fish in captivity and be it complete and efficient to the chemistry of its environment with waste management..but..i have now goldfish the size of good crucians in a 4ft tank...all extremely healthy and fit..but i put that down to near like tropic fish conditions barr heating elements and feeding three times a day more than the designated requirements labelled but i can`t help feeling the plight of those who look starving...what i`m getting at is..with this diet...it may seem more of less wasted proteins maybe more beneficial in this habitat...and can the overloading with wrong proteins in bait be dangerous???
couple of ingredients that i aint seen mentioned lately is...yeasts..fats..algae..and derivatives of a vegatable origin besides those of fish!

Andy,
The ideal diet will probably be dependant on water temperature, I have it in my mind that the optimum temperature for growth is around 28°C, not many lakes see that sort of figure.

Pete, Why should it be immpossible to produce nutritional shelf life bait? Does bait have to mean boilies? The koi industry seem to manage it, granted it may not be the ultimate food due to costing, but I bet it's a damned sight closer than the majority of baits.

Dean,
I'm interested in how you use chilli to alter the pH signal. Do you know what the pH is of your finished bait, and what it would be without the chilli? Would this vary much depending on the water the baits were boiled in? Or could you use additives in the boiling water to control the pH of the finished bait?
Lot of questions there, sorry.

One last one, does the pH of the carp you're trying to catch have any bearing on this?

Ged,every ingredient we use within our baits is used because it has a specific function within the mix.The chilli,being acidic,alters the ph signal of our baits.What people must realise is that in the ph scale 0.1 is quite a large difference.Yes we do know the ph of our finished bait and also the post boiling ph.The water its boiled in has little effect,it is temperature or the efficient working temperatures of the different enzymes we use that is the key for us!

We have never found the need to control ph through addits during boiling.

A little example,a chalk pit i have been fishing for a few years seemed to respond extremely well to a highly acidic bait of ours! The chalk lake being on the alkaline side and the bait being acidic,i feel,played a major role in its success