Feeds for aquaculture are designed with two things in mind, the cost of the feed vs the economic value of the end product (fish) and the fact that extremely high protein diets may well be best, but they mess up water quality without very expensive filtration (Costs again) Protein supplemented with lipids is the best for weight gain. Fish pellets are dry, boilies are moist, proteins are one of the most difficult substances to preserve in a moist state, shelf life nutritional baits are no more than a dream at present (the ways to do this are phenominally expensive for a fish bait.....)

The pH of Dean's bait is designed to maintain enzyme activity, boiling in water the sme pH as you intend he baits to be presents its own problems... Chilli is present for several reasons.....

Pete, in empirical terms you are simply wrong in terms of shelf-life boilies....

Nutrabaits shelf life Trigga and Trigga Ice boilies outfish any other boilies massively on lots of French waters - including my own - how can that be?

In my view it follows Wilton's view that carp will always take advantage of the best available food source and these baits offer excellent nutrition...

WOW!!! Yep I will say it again WOW!

Just what I thought Pete. So in short, 90% of bait, if not more is formulated using an potentially flawed and irrelevant ideal as a base.

Pete what profiles are you basing the drop the 94 comment on? Not saying provimi is crap they can still thrive on the stuff but 94 is far superior as far as I am aware?


Drop the flavour is a good shout though

The figure given for protein is highly misleading in that it simply states the amount of protein in the diet that will exhibit maximum growth rates or support a healthy mature fish.

If you dont 'reasonably' meet the specific amino acid requirement of carp or goldfish of the 10 essential amino acids the end result is the same...stunted and unhealthy fish

It doesnt matter if the protein content is 50% if the essential amino acids are not there in the correct ratios your end result is going to be the same.Equally if you can meet the requirements within less than 35% protein in your finished baits its going to be fine, and much better if feeding goldfish in an enclosed environment.Ammonia and tank/pond fish dont mix

"So in short, 90% of bait, if not more is formulated using an potentially flawed and irrelevant ideal as a base."

Not exactly what I was inferring, but correct nonetheless, those who quote aquaculture feeds as a base/blueprint for the ideal are wholly wrong and any bait based on such thoughts are therefore not as good as can be made....

"Nutrabaits shelf life Trigga and Trigga Ice boilies outfish any other boilies massively on lots of French waters - including my own - how can that be?"

Best of a bad bunch...? They are probably marginally better than most others based on what you say, but as 99% of people go to France with all kinds of readymades (like uncle Joe's Euro Semo Specials) it isn't that much of a test really, is it...

reminds me of the executioner who asked a condemned man whether he wanted to be flogged to death or hung, he chose hanging, the end result was the same, just a more pleasant way of achieving it....

Perhaps Nutrabaits have defied the laws of science and created a cost effective way of preserving proteins in a moist state, if so, there are numerous research centres in multinational companies that would pay hundreds of millions for the knowledge...

Ammonia and tank/pond fish dont mix ..


too true saggy but i did say mine was near tropic conditions..well really its more marine without heating...four filters including an external pondfilter and all contain nitrate fighting carbon medium ..these fish are in the pond of eden

>>"Perhaps Nutrabaits have defied the laws of science and created a cost effective way of preserving proteins in a moist state, if so, there are numerous research centres in multinational companies that would pay hundreds of millions for the knowledge"""


they`ve managed it with tin foods for years pete so beans to you

what about vaccume packs where the baits are oiled first..sure that would lock in moisture but keep out air

Wow this thread is all over the place,

A couple of thoughts if I can stick my oar in.

Re, commercial fish feed diets. I think its misleading to dismiss them out of hand. They are after all based on legitimate scientific research and although as Pete (I think) has pointed out they are concerned with determining the best compromise between growth and expense. This 35-40% protein level has been arrived at through such a compromise. The research that I have read states as much in saying that the increase in growth attained through increasing protein levels beyond this ratio is not significant enough to warrant the extra expense. So the question in my mind is, is this increased growth significant to us in formulating a more attractive bait? Lets not loose sight of the whole point of bait, its there to catch fish not feed them. Is a bait with a usable protein level of 60% a better bait than one with a useable protein content of 40%?

Re, Protein to lipid ratios. A carps primary concern is to satisfy its energy requirements. Once it has done this then it can begin to utilise the protein content for growth and maintenance. Its misleading therefore to think of Protein ratios as static levels since the amount of Protein that that carp will utilise for growth and maintenance depends on how much energy it is expending at that particular time and how much of that energy can be supplied through metabolising the lipid content of that particular food. Put simply, an active Carp in the height of summer will expend and therefore require more energy than a Carp in the depths of winter. If that summer time Carp cannot meet its energy requirements from the lipid content alone then it will begin to catabolize the protein supplied in that bait for energy rather than growth and maintenance. That naturally dictates that there is therefore, in a nutritionally complete food source and one designed to encourage maximum growth, a maximum level of protein required in order to leave room for the lipid content and that this ratio of Protein to Lipids will vary throughout the season dependent on the carps energy requirements. So what are the parameters for this ratio and how does it vary throughout the year? 40/60, 50/50, 60/40, 80/20? Does a 'better' bait take account of this? Is there a maximum lipid content?

Re, Limiting Aminos. I'm not dismissing it because its a scientific fact but I've always been a little sceptical about how much it matters in an angling situation. In a tank, yes, if you don't supply a complete food the carps health and growth will suffer but in an angling situation where you can't control exactly what that Carp is eating is it really so critical? I stand to be corrected here but from what I gather if the transit time for food in a carps gut is around the 12 hour mark (for this example) and a carp eats some Pond snails and blood worm at 9 o'clock in the morning; it then goes on to eat some bait made from LT94 at half past one and then finishes off with some mayfly and maggots for desert at about 3 o'clock. Can anybody say for definite that those or other food items eaten either side of the LT94 bait are not supplying the carp with the essential amino acids it requires and that providing that the carp eats those other items before the LT94 bait has travelled through the gut then it is able to use them in conjunction with the LT94 bait?


Finally, back to the real world. I challenge anybody out there to tell me, using everything they know about nutrition, chemoreception and attraction. Why are Halibut pellets such a noticeably better bait than any boilee I've ever used for catching Bream?

Timber, your understanding of preservation is very limited, I will restrain this time from dissecting you in public, I may not be too understanding tommorrow..

Johnny, I'm tired and going to bed..... will post a replyy tommorrow..