over the next few days i`m refurbishing and soupin up some heron heads..there`ll be a few adjustments in order to combat the original faults..reckon the way they are gonna be set up now will hopefully bring these set into the 21st century..where they wont go off in the wind and also transmit via a remote system..if i`m happy with the out-come of these..these will be used by me for the rest of my carpn past-time..as some/will/might say i should`nt and i would`nt use sommat that aint reliable and put any fish in any harm..of which i can assure you i wont and may even show them in action very soon if anyones interested...ps..this needle system will be so finely tuned it `will` indicate drop backs..of course some will say in order to register drop backs i`ll need it to be very sensitive which will result in false bleeps and ever adjustments..no,this wont be the case...which if interested..will show why!!!

reet managed to sort owt all the elecronics today..new and reset contacts with a different approach with the needle..whereas theres total balance..when needle moves it dont grip any plastic casing so wont need to be adjusted only for weather conditions..each contact is finally tuned and reciever triggers after approx 1/2 second bleep..leds are now placed in the top of the left ears,a better groove for rods as been formed to help against gales...the needle system is set a mm left of centre and line automatically falls down it with no strugglin..piccies sooon..just wiring tomoz and out testing nextweek.....hopefully!!!

Look forward to see them in Action

PM me where your going and i'll hopfully see you there

cheers bri,will sort sommat owt very soon..3weeks max..


on the heron side...one box is a sounder box for all four alarms,it also doubles up as transmitter...the other is the reciever with a 300m operating distance tho that wont be needed..been at this all day..time for a rest..lots to do tomoz..wiring and cleaning up etc..nice purple leds to finish em off!!

Don't let the lads on Canal Street see them

the way my fishing as been lately ..i might as well fish in the street!!!

You'll get more bites then

ps,if anyones got a spare screwthread knockin about for a heron..you`ll see i only have 3 in the piccy..need one more..pm me an i`ll buy it..many thanxs timber!!!

Can't a local Machinest knock you a couple up

got 4 different type here but thought i`d check on the offchance,i did have one inme gear years ago and dint know what it was for...DAMN !!!..i know now!

One question...

Why?

...because he's mentally ill

why??? and mentally ill???...nice!!!..pair of `kin weirdo`s ..as theee never dooon nowt in life for the shear hell of it???


narghh,i just lerv using traditional gear..fed up of clone noddie carpers ..and also `because I can`

i mean..woudnt you like to own/see a set of these operating better than any other system about about on the market today

if yer cant understand why..dont get involved!!!


[/quote]

if you strip them down ill get them powder cpoated for you if yoy like, they will be like new.

cheers schooch,thanks for the offer m8 but alls set now..took me ages to get perfect..just gonna give em a whizz over with a mini-drill buffer type tool then paint up ...but yes..very thoughful!!!

I freely admit I'm a weirdo Timber
What happened to those bobbin alarms you were making?

there here..sat here in a box..with the rest of the other contraptions ive made along the years..but been after a set of herons for a decade..this is a must for me ..so while nowts happenin..thought i`d invite anyone interested to see them change into sommat that will be used very soon

I appreciate it Timber. I remember the night I got home from school in the 70's and my herons had arrived from Bennets, monthly payment. They were censored, mind, and optonics came along and blew them away a few years later...

...but I like your spirit.

I put led's and GPO speakers in mine, as a 16 year old..

T24s and Herons....luvverly

these will be spot on jay...even fitted with vibration sensors ..so no false takes..as the needles set to contact on a dead cert full blown run..the vibes attached to the needle for the twitches..etc..which with the screws lessens/ups sensitivity...bingo!!!

Proper old school carping re vamped

As some one said .
they need taking to there bones at least one of them
But Timber your a star

I'll also have a look in the loft tommoz
Still got loads of me dad's gear there

yip have a look bri,narghh these`ll be bootifull by`t time i`ve finished..have to put on hold for a few days now tho...bizzy as foook!!

Serious question Timber. Are you bored with your fishing?

Think I recognise one of my old heads there Timbs? I thought you might have customised the front plate to house a roller(like a neville). Reliability/waterproof and still looking traditional with the casing. Hope I have not just started a new project for you

Good job - Keep the old school flying.

you`ll be reet there damian..cheers m8..yeah was gonna go a roller route..then thought i already have two sets of roller alarms..so now for a vibration set..

and answer to ste..no not bored m8..this is part of my carp fishing..like some make their own bait..rigs etc..i get the same buzz when i get a set of reliable alarms up n running from scratch and always wanted to do this when i got a set of herons..cheers!

when the lakes are frozen ...

heads are silent but options for sound later if needed,the little box is a wireless sounder which will be placed on rear buzz barr for peace of mind..whilst also using wireless reciever in the bivvy..two done upto now that are complete..not bad and cant w8 to test out!!!

Nice one Timber....to quote the mighty Tap: there's a thin line line between clever and stupid. Not sure which side of the line you sit mate, but as you so rightly said in an earlier post, sometime's it's just nice to do things for the hell of it....I salute you.

Thanks EV,i know some will be happy to see the herons back and still competing with todays technologies out on the banks..i`d salute you too if i knew your name

Salute accepted.

Good Luck mate.

I had my original Herons converted by Del Romang to make them more user-friendly I think in 1979....they were totally eclipsed by the Optonic when first released...also the BJ's and Rolons etc of the time were also made redundant...

I can't see any point in bringing them back mate, whatever upgrades you can make to them...the roller line effect is the key....

I dont intend bringing em back paul, but just to use specifically for certain occasions..i did do a test with this setting in an optonic and it was witnessed by a few anglers at the time..wind blasting..guitar strings..and no bleeps on the oppo..but a buzz from the needle of a fish shaking..approx 4 seconds prewarning to the one bleep with an 8 veiner wheel..ok theres more sensitivity alarms around with finer settings today..but would they stay stable enough in those winds..not sure!
I have 3 herons left..roller..i might or roller and vibrate..hmmm...am in no rush

Got my hands on a few more herons..got enough now thanks and will finish off with a set of rollers with these i think..cheers to all the decent anglers who`ve let me have them off them (not free) but at a decent price and glad i can put them to use..cheers to all.
This set will have a reciever eventually with a difference..this will have the additional security of watching my rods too..wink!
this reciever will work not by radio reception but motion detection of leds for bites..and also the vicinity of my rods should somebody mooch round whilst i`m in the land of nod..the reciever will be a combination of the timbtec 1 and sounder for the alarms and will be called the `heronhawk`..goodstuff!!

latching light,flashing led and volume control coming soon

4 alarms done with the security/reciever `heronhawk`reciever..pmsl..can be alarmed to bleep at the flash of an led of an heron alarm over a good distance.. bleep for bleep..can activate a recorded voice too for moochers..pmsl
volume to be added later on all units if required..rollers bleep at each 10mm movement..adding a vibration bobbin too later nearer winter..which will jack in from the back and activate further up the rod as well as the wheel/roller..
had to black out the leds..too bright ! ..blacked them out and when set will scrubb off a dot on top of the led with a nail file giving a powerful piercing light which will be seen in the brightest of days but not blinding ..
the v rest for rods needs to be cut further down nearer to the roller and that distance will be determined before testing out...all in all crackin battery life on this alarm of around a year and a half constant.. switched on..no worries there then!!

nice to see old buzzers brought back to life again.

Can you bring 40 - 50 year women back to life again timber lad

May have to see what you can do with some old read switch drop off pikey indicators I have knocking around that don't work

***Can you bring 40 - 50 year women back to life again timber lad ***...
....thats easy steve..Viagra

yeah send em us, those drop-offs steve..least i could do for you

Timber, with your electronics skills, if you could come up with a front mounted alarm that will register takes when using braid and open bale arms for pike/cats/eels without the braid skipping and no resistance you'd be quids in. Only Delks are close to it at the min but they have their faults.

easy ! ..would you like some making up to test out m8 ...free too..just give us your feedback

Yeah can do mate
There seems to be a big problem with roller wheel alarms for piking, particularly newer ones like the fox digital ones where the diameter of the wheel is so small that the braid just can't grip it enough to overcome the power of the magnets n the roller whilst fishing open bale arm.

gotcha
These i intend to set up for you have no moving parts, which will hopefully read your line as it passes through your V/slot in the alarm kinda like barcode reading..where there`ll be no resistance whatsoever..
forgive my ignorance into eel and pike fishing etc..i take it you lightly clip up ?..
clip above or below the spool initially so line dosent peel off the spool and the fish takes it out of the clip and then open bail and no bobbin or anything attached from here-on allows fish to swallow bait correctly if fish feel no tension etc... which then wont spook..etc. am i right here(is this bit important?)
if you do clip or lightly clip..then i can go about this method described above and set about testing a circuit i have in mind...will also need a little time to correct as in(battery life..sensitivity...and waterproofing etc)but will enjoy the challenge extremely thanks

Yeah that's bang on Timber. Most people that use front alarms use a rear drop off indicator that sits below the spool to hold the line under tension for drop backs, once that is released it is free running. The pic below shows what I mean, though most people set it up closer to the spool. This one is deliberately set up with a large drop as it's a prototype line gate release bobbin a mate designed (that fox rather unsuccessfully tried to copy).
I think the problem with braid lies in it's suppleness and slipperyness that makes it skip over alarm sensors without registering.

spot on,that gives me two options now but will stick with the original in mind from above firstly..the line readers ..test them out when they`re ready which i think will be spot on but only good if you can get on with them after testing..again am not a piker or owt so only you will be able to tell with using in proper conditions..cheers..let you know when they`re ready

No worries Timber, looking forward to testing them out

Hope they are not too much like a bar code reader. If my experience is anything to go by instead of registering a bite it will tell me that there is an unknown item in the bagging area.

'checking item weight' or 'confirmation required' and for some reason everytime I buy buns/baps/rolls it asks me if the price is right

2 pcbs done and operate fine, one in box yet to be completed but gives an idea of operational sensoring here,infact it operates better with braid..must be the fibres it picks up moving...the box will be completely encased in resin and the only parts open to elements will be the V where the line enters and the 3 x lr44`s battery casing when fitted and finished which will be covered by the back of the box which will also seal around the edges with a hole inset for drainage near the V and a little lubrication will cover the battery compartment from the elements from condensation etc...lr44`s(watch/button type batts) are a 1000 for about a tenner too so thats a plus

Sorted and nice n dinky too

click on this pic..vid using slack braid










a few more things to add soon,speaker cover which will amplify the sound and then volume control to lower ..bankstick adaptors etc..but coming along smashing i think!

Looking good Timber

Very impressive techno stuff your certainly not a "timber" lol

I love the system you built for the ali nev/nash alarms

Can a str receiver be upgraded? mine never seems to work at the same speed as the alarms and the range is prity crap

Mine doesn't either Biv. Single bleeps are ok but it doesn't keep up with screamers or short fast takes using my STs. It's even worse connected to delkims with their increased sensitivity. I presume it's the delay in transmitting the signal.

Dont know much about the str bivyman but presume with being all on the same channel..restrictions on receptions would be useful if others using the same were near-by and that was probably taken into account when designing.
On the other hand do you get bleep for bleep if receiver is right at the side of the str and does it intermittently miss the further away you go?
Are you using the txr system filthy..the early version?

on hold at the minute the alarms whilst i source some bits..rearranging one or two things..want these to be bang-on for you..
one of the advances is they will be a complete sealed unit..no batts to change ..and just charge on the bank for approx a hour.. somewhere after a complete near months use..you`ll be able to charge at home of course..but a back-up charger on the bank cos of not knowing the exact lifespan at the mo etc...good stuff!

On the other hand do you get bleep for bleep if receiver is right at the side of the str and does it intermittently miss the further away you go?


No even right next to the alarm i get one bleep from the reciever for every 4 or 5 bleeps the alarm bleeps i could have a screamer and the reciever sounds like the carp is "walking" away

very low responsive electronics by the sounds used there m8..nowt you can do with that am afraid..thought it might have been a reception problem ..are all str`s the same or just yours?

Yes Timber, it's the old TXR system I have (the pre digital one). I get pretty much the same thing as Biv does. I have the 4 magnet roller wheels in my alarms and going very slow you get a beep on the receiver everytime the alarm beeps, but speed it up and it's about 1 on the receiver to every 5 or so on the alarm (depending on speed). If I get a screamer I get a continuous tone on the receiver for a short time, then back to intermittent as it slows down. It's the same with the receiver right next to the transmitter as it is 30 feet away.

yeah got you there filthy,i think the problem is the fact that in the earlier years.. components were`nt efficient on batts and only recent advances on (sleep.. shut-down) of components at lower consumptions used which can be made to suit the angler for size of product..plus the fact early years we were just happy at the initial alert of a take from a wireless box and letting the alarm do the rest was enough and an advancement at that time,but things have moved on in such a short spirt of time!!

TBH, all I need is a beep or two on the receiver to alert or wake me and check the rods/alarms for action so I've had no problems so far really. Might be different if I turned the alarms volume right down but I like to be able to hear the alarm too, just in case the battery goes or something. I only went onto a radio receiver to get past the wire length and trailing wire problems of a conventional sounder box as in some swims I fish your bivvy is often further from the rods than the wire reaches....plus there is the problem of the public walking by all day on a couple of waters.

Hi Filthy,
i had the same problem using te old tx2000 transmitters with the tx receiver. Sent it back to Delkim who said they could replicate the problem but had no idea why it should be happening (bearing in mind it just started doing it after several years of usage). They very nicely replaced the whole inside of both transmitter and receiver to the newer versions and it solved the problem.

Timber, on thing I do get and that is during the night I get a two tone alarm from the receiver. No idea why! Any suggestions? I first thought it was a battery problem bt I can change all the batteries in the alarams and the receiver and I can guarantee it will do ir at least once during the night!

Sorry Timber, also just wanted to say that I finally got round to buying an ATTX .2 transmitter and remote system to ue with the super xl optonics you refurbished for me a few years back - works perfectly!

The optonics are now over 20 years old and work spot on every time. ~Who needs modern? Super job!

glad to be of help to keep the old skool stuff alive john and glad to say they`ll be operating for another decade or two without any probs..sorted

asfor the alarm sound on the receiver.. siren type,it should be a warning for low batts..but reckon an ic, temperature problem or short with damp/condensation etc or a mixture of all..if the batts are all right..wouldnt worry..delks do get a life of their own sometimes i reckon
you could try a couple of layers of `clear` nail varnish on the ciruit ..keeping away from switches rotary knobs etc..tip if you do use clear nail varnish..take the brush out/lid off for an hour before using and keep mixing..it`ll thicken up nicely..make sure batts removed first before sealing the circuit and leave for 24 hrs

Cheers Timber!

no probs john..have a great season

I have the new TXI’s (presuming that Delkim used that circuitry in your alarms) I get the same thing fairly often. Are we talking about two low but two tone bleeps a bit like the old “you guessed wrong in family fortunes”?

Like you I presumed it was a low battery warning but I have now after more use concluded that it is most likely the out of range signal. In my opinion it’s either atmospherics or outside radio interference that has for a split second broken the link between transmitter and receiver triggering the alarm. Totally un-scientific granted, but I found this occurred more often if I put my receiver under my pillow, as was my habit with my wired sounder box. I could only conclude that by covering the receiver it weakened the signal and made it more susceptible to outside interference.

I now just ignore it, because whatever may be causing this two tone alarm after much jumping up and down tweaking, and getting a mate to walk half way round the lake with my receiver testing the true range, it does not appear to affect the functioning of the alarms one iota.

Andy,i was under the impression of a siren type sound that last for around 4 secs...my eos`rs give off this for low batts and not at any other time...yours could be the reciever going through a cycle to retune to the alarms by itself but how annoying especially if alert snag fishing..mine work through walls buildings and distances of 200 yards too till the out of range beep kicks in

Andy, that's the sound I'm thinking of. My sounder box will also do it when it's only a few yards from the alarms. it will probably only be once or twice a night. Probably a bit of a mixture of both yours and Timber's opinions, in that invreased humidity leads to a brief loss of contact.

Any idea what a repeated one second low tone means? This is another one I get on a regular basis.

Ta

John

........Any idea what a repeated one second low tone means? This is another one I get on a regular basis..................




Not more bleeps on a regular basis and this is the delks upgrades..pah!,i havent the foggiest to be truthful there john..maybe itsa sign to throw them in the bin m8,i said earlier...life of their own
Stick with your oppo`s i did for you and attx v2..they`ll be reet

No idea about that one John?
I still have the instructions for mine but never read any further than programming the sounder. They worked after that, so why read on LOL? I will have a look and see if they tell us what the different warning bleeps indicate.

Mine occasionally give out the odd warning tone but it’s infrequent enough for it to be more puzzling than annoying. Certainly not even close to being an issue where I would consider changing alarms.

Got a mate who uses the ATTX V2 with Delks and he is quite happy. That said the only two people I know who bought the alarms had serious range issues. I am talking vary limited range with no warning that the connection had been broken. I would rather have alarms that give out the occasional inexplicable bleep but continue to work 100% rather than alarms that have the potential to stay silent when they should be screaming, just because you have walked a few yards up the bank talking to your mate in the next peg.

Edited just to say: Just remembered the tone you mean John. Yep mine occasionally do that one as well, no idea why or what it indicates and like I said it's infrequent enough for it to be more puzzling than annoying, so I just swith my reciever off and on again and just ignore it.

Thanks both.

Andy, it's more annoying than puzzling when it's the middle of a winter night and you have to out of the bag to reset the alarms! Like you, I got the transmitters, read how to program them and then threw the instruction book away!

Timber, you're probably right mate!

Ok, the two low tones (bee bah, it says in the instructions) is either a result of the programming button being pressed (clearly not the case) or radio interference. It advises that you only use the sounder in the local setting if you are experiencing this problem.

Personally I don’t think that will sort out the problem, because thinking about it I suspect that the source of radio interference is very local i.e. sat on the same bivvy table. Given that we are usually fishing in rural locations I would imagine that the main suspect here for radio interference are our mobile phones! This should be a simple fix, just keep our sounders away from our mobiles. I may be premature but I am confident enough to say job done, problem sorted.

Only code that describes a single low tone repeating is the low battery warning for the receiver.

Hope that helps John?

yip that should do it Andy..moby phones could be the culprit,having said that..for that kind of money they shouldnt be either..no probs with my fox eos`rs or lxr`s the cheaper older less fandangled options ..you hear your radios deep tones bipping away frequently and nobodies ringing..aerial signal retreiving and communicating with moby phone mast
and then theres the regular low blips...well..battery or life letting you know they dont require one soon!

Remember these..doing four of these all in the same nick for me ..no fuss..the little hole above the thumb screw is where an internal tiny buzzer is fitted,not too loud but louder than the original piezo souder and heronhawk sounderbox works for the wireless sounder option..tiny subminiature toggles replaces the old dodgy slide switches..half a grommit to go round buzzer holes..spot on..no messing



click on pic

Still prefer my Super XL models! Although with the toggle switch replacing the old slide switch (a la Timber) of course!

you never know john ,might even get round to fitting the dongles inside them xl`s for you..if they pack up thats the dongles not the oppo`s .. packing up
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Right, scrapped the line sensor thingy idea for the time being..still waiting for a few bits and will tinker and try and get them up to scratch but put on the back burner for the mo,got sommat alot better in mind...will finish them if met with failure with this new idea and reckon this will be a lot better and more efficient than the line readers on batts...coming soon an upgrade of sommat oldskool too..the end product should be finely balanced free rolling rollers that braid will grip, with even less resistance than the readers.

No worries mate. I detect a tad of being a perfectionist with your tinkerings

The old optonics were pretty good for detecting bites with an open bail because of the large roller wheel diameter. I still have one of the compacts but the buzzer packed in and the replacement is barely audible to a deaf lugs like me.

Thats the one m8..the big wheel ratio...i thought to myself..i`ve got some spare in boxes in bits and why not try sommat with them..so heres the thinking...big wheel...dump the axle which the veins fitted to,just enuff axle/spindle to balance on both sides of the housing(perfectly balanced),then use the wheel as the vein..three holes in the wheel(like spokes on alloys) and one hole on both sides of the wheels housing where sensors will be fitted..so as wheel turns..the holes will align or move out and the sensor kicks in..great idea hmmm!...then a little slither of flexible silicone in the line track of wheel..sounds good..test it soon

not forgot about yours filthy just dammed hard getting bits for the old oppos but got so much stuff am gonna give you a couple of mine..just tested the roller spoke idea owt and works fine..alls needed now is filling in copmpletely and a little slither of silicone round the track of the wheel..will crack on with the other soon now its spot on this one,
click on the pic
ps a couple of sockets one on each and you can use your txr system with them...is it 2.5 or 3,5 plugs you got?

That's sweet mate

I have 2.5mm and 3.5mm leads for my TXR, so whatever is handy.

I have an old optonic compact here that will never get used if you want to butcher that. The replacement speaker is really quiet though and the jack socket doesn't work.

yeah i`ll add it to my box of bits filthy
both done up to the spec of the vid previous..just to add sockets and silicone to wheels next time am in the mood to finish em..am amazed tho..how free they roll when boxes are screwed back together...nearly as sensitve as a lxr on vibrate..cool

sorted mate

sorted and ready for you fella..2.5mm sockets underneath on the lower back right for your txr set up..thought i`d put on external buzzers on as with the rest is completely sealed..leaving only the battery clip and buzzer the only two servicable parts to change if fail in future years..good stuff..using loose braid here in the test..pm us your addy..you`ll have to get new batts cos these are my nimh`s for my old lxr`s though..soz

That's spot on Timber, I've PM'ed you

Now then,just got hold of 4 old super compact optonics,won`t go into too much detail of what they`ll be getting but it`ll be at least 3 advancements from how they were originally...
It`ll be a long drawn out project but will put vids up on how they progress so might take a year to complete but am in no rush..
just a start to the front case features and better tone quality ....
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/timbernot/?action=view&current=SDC10018-1.mp4

back soon i hope,ps might need some extra bits and bobs for em too

is it me but is that the most mad vid i have seen your defo in your own cult of what to vid ps you could of got a better tone runner i mean come on a old bent packet of rizla still dont get the point

There is no point to get joe..i dont want to go into the extras they`ll be receiving..maybe when completed there might be a point fella and maybe someone might be interested as the fishing is a bit slow at the mo..ps,got all 4 oppos for less than 75 quid..it`ll be criminal not to soup em

Timber i'll have them when there done fella unless someone else has first grabs

These are not for sale bri but if you aquire the bits i`1l be sorting in this thread as it gets updated, to bring these old school alarms up to date.. and into the future ,i`ll gladly put em together for you m8 sometime

Nice one pal
Santas bringing me new pits and rods my eldest lad is having my old ones, feck he's 5foot 7 now and he's only 10 he be as big as you in a few years but much better looking
Some disasters in moving down here but all's well now

"he be as big as you in a few years but much better looking...."


Impossible !


For joe,change rizla for silver knife...

click the pic

receiver has detachable ear piece which is near the camera mic to pick up the tone from the ear-piece..coming along nicely


some more stuff to finish then back onto em later in the week

Changed the inside red led for a white led to the detector and where the top screw for the pcb is inside..that is now removed and a very small hole is drilled through to the front case and filled with clear glue giving the effect of a night light from the source already being used inside,pretty hard to see in this vid but again am amazed...lots more extras to come yet

Right,decided to change the internal led back to another more modern hyperbrite red led instead..put an eye type device over the lens for night light from the red led being used inside which is spot on(a ambient light but cant be seen for miles),diverted the antenna from the transmitter to the ext.out-put socket..where an antenna then is plugged in instead for better remote reception(no need for that socket for sounder out-put now anyway)
Fitted new toggle switch too,where it cant be turned on in carriage..only off
Will get the other 3 alarms up to this state before adding at least another 3 extras...looking good





click the pic below

Hey Timber, looking good! Got the ATTX system for the ones you did me and they are now my premier alarms!

Why not put some time into developing hangers alon the line of te Kryptonites? Bet you could do a good job on them!

I did john,20 yrs back m8 ...glad your still buzzing with your kit..and for a good few mores years yet

two upto standard altho might change later depending on how i feel.Then when alls complete..extras to be added
one just needs a few things but all the bulk out of the way..gonna be ready quicker than i first thought..then it`ll be baqck onto my herons with rollers which will operate the same exact receiver here with ear-piece when required..coming on

click the pic..

got 3 delk plus`s to go with this same receiver,done away with the twin leds on the ears,put one switchable night light and variable strength latching light at the centre instead,
If the alarm batts die or the alarm is switched off...this gives security tone to receiver to let me know if anyones after having me gear off..looking good..now gonna finish me oppos off

delks with a onetoner on the receiver for judging speed of take..crackin

clic the pic

Thats it ! till frozen winter..all up to standard now..apart from new proper decals when they arrive and might change switch covers then ..will add the extras on the next freeze...
Back to fishing till then


clic the pic



ps,no repairs till atleast nov