s a newcomer to this wonderous new toy to the universe,could someone enlighten me as 2 the feesability{probably fuckd the spelling of that)so lets say viability of commercially producing a bait containing active enzymes?

Mix yeast and sugar,sorted....or is it?
Pete B knows these things.


http://www.botham.co.uk/bread/yeast.htm

The viability of commercialy making a bait is low.

and would this be bcos no other company has neither had the savvy or the balls 2 put their necks on the line or is that just a personal view Manager???? and why would Pete B know my friend????

Ok then, lets put it another way shall we?If somrone could positively prove without any doubt that an enzyme active bait that they had,would b significantly more nutritious and attractive 2 our quarry than ANYTHING ELSE available on the market,would it then b viable????????

Pete B knows everything about bait , or at least, has an informed opinion.

As for commercially making it, do you presently run your own business and want to expand?
Can you afford to do it?
How are your sales and marketing skills?
Most importantly, how many before you have failed and tried?
If the answer to the first 2 questions is yes, then I honestly wish you the best of luck.

WHY? do u do buisness loans my friend? and if so,wots your current a.p.r????? lol

Come on Pete, we know your there, answer the boy.

Cy.

now that is sound advice and i hope there is no charge 4 ur wisdom?And do i detect a hint of loathing 4 Mr cuntsniff? sorry Cundiff(fingers kep slipping,must apologise)and i will put this 2 u .If Pete B would have made such a claim ,would u or anyone else have been more than inquisitive?????????

Feasability is based on your desired profit margin(which we have to have), unless you have contacts in the right places, forget it. The chances of you having more knowledge/contacts than the "bait boys" is slim.
A top quality bait could be formulated with the required knowledge, but would not be a viable commercial venture. Hence the available baits out there now, tailored to acceptable price structures, and not the "best" that maybe available. It,s horses for courses as they say, but I know [censored] all anyway!!!!

I don't loathe J.C. at all, I did put (example) after his name.
Re-read Richard's post, he knows about selling and profits, as did I once.

Prove how good it is, advertise on here, I'll be the first to buy it...at almost any price if it is the best bait on the market.
Once again,good luck, and talk to an accountant.

Congragulations on your big Hawke fish mate. I lost my job a few months ago, c,est la vie. I could put an awesome bait together, but at todays prices you would be looking at £30 a kilo, who would pay that, and think they would not be entitled to catch every outing?

"answer the boy."

Just got in after a 14 hour day... will post tomorrow on the feasability of enzyme active baits and profit margins at point of sale...

Gentlemen i bow down 2 your superior knowledgr within this field and i thank u 4 your sound buisness advise,I will keep u posted of all catches ,pictures etc,and any recomends of a decent accountant would b mouch appreciated cos my tax returns late and my accountants a bit on the slow side!!!! lol id like mr selmans views on this matter tho!!

Did I say it was from Hawk lake?

Correct,at £30 a kilo I would not only expect to catch, but would want quality and quantity. (compared to others around me anyway).

mY MUM SAYS YOU PAY HER £60 A GO BUT SAYS SHE GETS NEITHER QUANTITY OR QUALITY!!!!! LOL

U must of done 48 hrs on the trot PETE B cos u haven,t come across with a lot considering everyone thinks u the MAN!!!!!!!! Do u wanna stamp ur authority on this debate or wot??????

Be nice to Pete, I'm sure he will get back to us after due consideration.

In the meanwhile I'll stick in my twopenneth for Pete to correct.

Enzymes and attraction, are you even sure that the enzymes are do the attracting ? I'm not, I think it's the product of the enzymatic reactions that's important.

Enzymes are generally protein based catalysts (there are some that are not proteins,) each has a specific job and need optimum conditions to work effectively (pH and temperature).

I would work backwards and ask yourself what it is in the bait that is doing the attracting.

I would suspect that any effective enzyme enhanced bait might well be expensive to produce on a commerical scale, would suffer from quality control issues and have a short shelf life. This would all mean higher retail prices for a limited increase in effectiveiness (if any) and Joe Carper almost certainly wouldn't pay the price.

So my answer to your question is basically no. I don't doubt a few of the gifted amatuers are playing around with them though.

Cy.

thats a different train of thought Mr Yates but alas,i require Pete to give me a few points to lead me down the right path but i can see where your coming from Temperature control i know is crucial,and i would have thought that 2 keep any sort of stability within the bait prior to fishing u would have to keep the bait in as cool environment as possible ie coolbox when taken from the freezer???? as heat tends to spead up the reaction within the bait thus releasing its attractants b4 uve had the chance 2 fish?then again i could be wrong ?

Thought that the heat tolerate enzymes capable of withstanding the rigours of boiling were prohibitively expensive???
Those at the Selby fishin in 2004 gawped at Pete B`s plaggy tub full of a predigested milk protein compound at a mere £2000/kg.

I know the koi feed companies have been using enzymes in their feeds to maximise feed utilisation and reduce waste but then their not dunking their feeds into boiling water.
Perhaps their use is best limited as an after treatment to the rolled bait in the form of a bait soak or in pastes/pellets.

With the number of hydrolised products on the market already in use,(fishmeal,milks,liver,yeast for example) is there any significant benefit from adding enzymes to a bait.

Dannon active yoghurt bait dips work out a little cheaper......

Lactobacillus Bulgarices and Streptococcus Thermophilus rule...OK?...

A very good point, one that i will sleep on,in fact initial testing that i have witnessed has been in paste form but with amazing reactions!!!!!!perhaps £2000 is a tad expensive and just tips the scales against commercial viability???Time will tell,extreme heat degeneration i am reliably informed shouldnt cause a problem the complementary protein structure within the bait combined with a selected combination of effective enzymes (a closely gaurded secret thus far,and trust me it is out there) is the key!!!

And much tastier no doubt Dont come close 2 fromage frais tho does it? must stop nicking the kids packed lunch

Is Fromage Frais active?....

Leave it out of the fridge unopend for a couple of weeks,then open, ITS ACTIVE, BELIEVE ME .

Just a point, all the body building supplements contain enzymes that can be utilised in carp baits, they dont cost £2000 a kilo, WHY is afdding them to a carp bait not a viable proposition?, they only need adding as a blend at appx 5 grms tops to a kilo of base....I theenk

Dean...

Cy is correct, enzymes simply enable two things:
a. the easier utilisation of the bait by the carp
b. the release of aminos & peptide chains as a side issue to (a)

now this may seem a little point, but it is not.. we all go for things to make our bait more attractive, this route allows you to do that without the need for artificial chemical signals.

When combined with a well sorted basemix, (FLAA and all that) it turns a bait into a very nutritious and highly attractive one.. It can be expensive, but there are ways of doing it that could be incorporated into a commercial bait..
Potential problems would be customers not following storage instructions and the obvious one of allowing people who have no clue trying to make it in the first place...

Temperature is a key, but it depends when you allow enzymatic activity and whether you kill the process at the boiling stage or not.. bait storage is another issue.. you cannot do shelflife...

That stuff I had at the Selby fish in was a sample from China.. if I had bought a Kilo it would have set me back over £1900... That was an enzyme with esterase capabilities.. a bit of overkill really...

And so endeth the lesson!!!!!!! another late one my friend? i myself was awoken by a strong force of jedi proportion and was teleported to my galactic communicator,where upon i found my answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!COMMERCIAL VIABILITY U C Skywalker with u the force is strong .My quest has brought us 2gether and i will pay a handsome sum of your earth pounds to share with u your infinte wisdom on this topic ........... Wot the fcuk was that all about?Gotta stop eating mushrooms

Quote:

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gotta stop eating mushrooms

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Dont stop, it some times helps in expanding your outlook

Dont do nowt for my outlook except giving everything a multicoloured glow!! Usually wake up in a bush somewhere and usually in a different town And why dont they wash the dirt off the buggers????

Dont eat too much mate or people will start asking you "WOTS WIV THE LONG FACE?" or an addiction to sugar cubes and polo mints!!!! id just hoof the stuff out if i were u

I meant as a dip/soak,not a component Kevin....Bacteria are able to produce an enzyme,
beta-galactosidase,in order to utilise and digest Lactose by its conversion to
glucose and galactose....

Sweet! ......

Bloody hell Kevin what on earth possessed you to buy a tub of CLOP. I thought I lived with an impulse buyer but even we have never ended up with one of them. I tempted to say you ought to get out more but in your case I think you ought to stay in more.

Not a lot of room in a horse box eh or should i say hay Kevin? Unless of course ur a posh mare and have a stable???

You should see the funny looks i get from some of these equestion/tack type shops out in the sticks when i say what i`am using their feed supplement gear for....
If it ain`t a horse it really doesn`t count to some of these people....

For those that don`t know.
CLOP stands for "cod liver oil powder"

Get h0ld of the garlic and fenugreek supplement its awsome!!!!but use sparingly abount a teaspoon to the pound!The dogs danglers mate,but dont tell no one!!! lol

Seavitmin (kelp,fenugreek,clo)and similar products.

Back on track with enzymes though,i came across a koi paper awhile ago which raised some concerns regarding the possible overuse of aggressive digestive enzymes in koi feeds.
The benefits of feed utilisation and reduced ammonia levels were counteracted by the theoretical risk in a closed pond enviroment of the enzymes attacking the koi`s digestive tract which is something you could well be doing without given the price of these fish.

I cant see that happening in open water conditions, but i think uve just given my mates carp a reprieve which are swimming in his tank!!! wouldnt risk harming the little fellas during tank tests

Enzymes, the Holy Grail for the bait buff but are they really worth the expense and effort required to get to grips with them?

All enzymes are proteins but not all proteins are enzymes. Unlike the bulk protein that we include within our baits (for fish meal or whatever) they do not in themselves provide a nutritional benefit. Their purpose is to act as a catalyst to change. There are very many types of enzyme and each is very specific in the change that it can cause. Relatively few are of interest to the angler, I’ll just focus on those that relate to the breakdown of protein..

A couple of salient facts –

Proteins are big long chains and amino acids held together by little links called peptide bonds. It’s these amino acids that Mr Carp wants to get at and to do that it need to break the bonds.

Carp don’t have a stomach like us, just a big long length of plumbing that the food passes along. This is a relatively inefficient means of digesting food.

By adding the right types of enzymes to a bait we are attempting to assist in the carps digestive process and thus make the amino acids within the food we are feeding easier for the carp to get at. I’ve seen it written that adding enzymes to a bait improves the BV of the protein. It doesn’t. BV (Biological Value) is a measure of how well the mixture of amino acids within a protein source meet the mix that is considered ideal for whatever eats it. Enzymes don’t change the amino acid profile they just make it easier for the carp to get at them.

I was going to go on and talk about how to get the little enzymes to do there stuff (in general terms) but the post is getting a little long so maybe another time. Instead I’ll try and cover an area that I think is a little more important.

You need to understand about the first limiting amino acid concept to get your head around this next bit. I don’t have room to cover it here so go look it up on another post on the site if you need to.

Years ago bait buffs used to make up for a lack of certain essential amino acids within the protein in their baits by adding them in a crystalline form. Sounds like a good idea doesn’t it? Well actually no. Scientific experiments showed that Carp didn’t actually gain much benefit from these added amino acids. All very interesting but what’s it go to do with enzymes?

FLA is not the be all and end all. You need to consider how the carp gets at the amino acids bound up in the protein. In the crystalline supplementing example above the supplemented amino acids are made available very early in the digestive process but those locked within the protein take longer to get at. The carp can’t store them whilst it gets on with the digesting the others so they are wasted.
Consider a bait that has had part of it’s protein content broken down by enzymes into amino acids. I’d suggest that it not too dissimilar to the supplemented example above. The free amino acids would be made available too quickly. I know what you are thinking – if they were all available at once then this wouldn’t matter. Unfortunately it does. Feed a carp on a perfect blend of amino acids in a free form and it won’t actually be all that good for them. They gain much more benefit from those same amino acids bound up in a simple protein. This is because the Carp absorbs different amino acids at different rates once they are available.

When it comes to digestion, it would seem that nature is best!

I was going to go on and talk about the attraction aspects but this is turning into a monster so I better shut up.

I don’t expect that my thoughts will be very well received by bait buffs and I can feel them committing angry finger to keyboard as we speak. Could get interesting!

"I don’t expect that my thoughts will be very well received by bait buffs "
.....is that it, just thoughts , or are you quoting fact ?
Interesting reading nonetheless,I even understood most of it, not got my thinking head on tonight.

Fact in science can be subjective but I’ll dig out some references. Just be aware that there may be other that contradict!

"Consider a bait that has had part of it’s protein content broken down by enzymes"

Would your reservations extend to a bait where the amino profile was just about right and the whole protein content was broken down at once..

Yes Peter, as I understand it. Been trying to find some quotes on the web that I can copy to save my fingers so taking a while to respond. Also I've been trying to keep the language of this simple (for my own sake as much as anything) so sorry if this is a bit heavy.

"In general, dietary free amino acids are more rapidly assimilated in fish than protein-bound amino acids. Experiments ……, common carp (Plakas et al., 1980) …….. fed free amino acid test diets showed that peak plasma amino acid concentrations occurred sooner.....than with an equivalent casein-based diet .........
Furthermore, in carp. individual free amino acids appear to be absorbed at varying rates from the gastro-intestinal tract, and consequently peak plasma concentrations of individual amino acids do not occur simultaneously (Plakas et al., 1980)." THE NUTRITION AND FEEDING OF FARMED FISH Albert G.J. Tacon


From my notes Aoe et al (1970 36, 407-413) found the same with free amino acids added to the diet but more interestinly also a trypsin digested diet was also equally ineffective. I don't have the original text available (must have been from one of my many private study lessons when I should have been looking Electrical Eng. books in the library!)but it seemed very significant to me at the time.

I’m a bit vague on references, (never was a very meticulous student!) for this next bit but my studies at the time lead me to understand that during a carp’s digestion of protein the amino acids that take the longest to absorb get “freed up” first and those that get absorbed more quickly get freed up later so that they all become available at the same time to the fish. Pre-digesting the protein appeared to mess that up and make them all available in the gut at once where they were absorbed at differing rates.

Oh pete we have a man to rival or,should i say someone on ur level, now this could get bloody good,WAYNE ,i tip my hat to u sir cos mosy of wot u said made for very good reading I,for one would love 2 read your views on attraction etc, and eagerly await your reply sir cos i can c this getting the old grey matter stimulated!!!!

i even understood some of that

good stuff ..............more plain english please

Dean mate, to be blunt I’m nowhere near the main man and I sure as hell am no rival!

“Speak the same language”? Well “pigeon bait buff” maybe!

I have a habit of questioning things and forming my own opinion based on the information available. It’s never concerned me if that is at odds with what others think. Every advance ever made started off with someone questioning the accepted “facts”, that’s how we move forward. There is so much “folklore” in fishing that people never seem to question and that holds us back.

I totally agree with that last reply Wayne and take no notice of my childish last reply,for i was foolishly baiting me old buddy pete to give a speedy reply unbeknown 2 me he had already replied but please do continue gentlemen cos it makes very intresting reading a lot of replys in that reply eh? fcuk dunnit again

"interestinly also a trypsin digested diet was also equally ineffective"

It would be... dependent on the proteins available and their make-up... I love people who say pre-digested fishmeals are highly beneficial to a carp... they are... but it depends what proteins they are combined with... and at what state of breakdown... Trypsin is but one of many enzymes.. and definitely a blind alley as far as I am concerned...

"I have a habit of questioning things and forming my own opinion"

Ditto mate... Have you ever seen such things discussed before you posted here???

"There is so much “folklore” in fishing"

Agreed... so much that you could drown in it.... Mr X has caught such a fish.. he says... and it is now fact... the fact that said angler has an IQ of a chair leg is of no importance...

Bait, in general, is not a proven science, whatever you do has to be analysed in a scientific manner though... or you chase your tail forever...

“Have you ever seen such things discussed before you posted here?”

Questioning the affects of enzymes on the effectiveness of Carp bait is not exactly unique.

I think I’m right in saying that it was Tim Paisley that first brought enzymes to the attention of the general Carp fishing public. Keith Sykes (the then proprietor of Coltswolds baits) would have been around the same time? There was also a little know bait company around al little before that time called Bankside who had enzyme products available.

As an aside I’ve often wondered about the relationship between Bankside and Nutrabaits, there were some geographical connections. Bankside seemed to disappear around the time of Nutrabaits starting out but some of their products became available under the Nutrabaits label. No doubt I’ll get jumped all over by you-know-who for that so I best move on.

Jim Gibbinson raised his doubts in Big Water Carp. Tim, Mark Summers, et al had been successful on the Tip using a Garlic Oil flavoured milk protein bait incorporating enzymes (trypsin & bromelin). Jim’s comments (I think) related to the fact that this success didn’t seem to be repeatable on other waters.

Rob Maylin also poured scorn on them in Tiger Bay “I doubt that 5% (of successful anglers) are splitting their proteins with enzymes” or was that him having a go at Tim? Nice to see Rob was later to change is view point when he got involved in the M-tec thing, I’m sure there was no commercial pressure at all!

Later there may have been some stuff published by Charlie Dally but I’m not sure on that as I don’t have a copy.

Indecently when trying to check out the Charlie Dally thing I took a look in the old Carpworld Yearbook. Looks like the original trigger for my scepticism over enzymes was actually an article published by Mark Simmons back in 1990 (who is/was a research chemist at Nottingham University). I’d forgotten that as I’d only looked in my old bait notebooks when I was searching for the references and as I said before I am rather poor student at times and don’t always record where I obtained reference material.

Enzyme baits go back a lot further than you think Wayne.....

Yellow Slyme...Black Magic....Red Slyme...all appeared during the 70's....

So if bacteria can produce enzymes and Wayne reckons nature can`t be bettered then why not go down the route of growing cultures on the baits to promote some enzymatic reaction???
The white "mould" often seen on "sweated" baits is supposed to be attractive to carp and i`am sure from a old FW post a couple of years ago that one regular FW member (Mr Yates perhaps???) had some experience of using a liver and yeast based solution to achieve the same thing????
I can imagine that a good degree of trial and error would be required to successfully pull this off.

Nice topic, i often wondered why the topics ive made on allmost same topic never really got any respond, but from reading this one - i can see i might have been way ahead in my findings, nothing new to me written here... Just had to let it out, i know many wont like or accept this statement...

Test's ive read, shows that theres no improved performance, ie. growth, when predigested protein ingredients are used in feed for carp, but in salmonoids its proven to be effective...
( think some of WayneT's posts - claims the same as ive read... )

I dont see any idea in adding enzymes to predigest a baits protein, ie. casein, crustaceans or fishmeal, when these products are cheaper to use as readymade predigested ingredients, and the end result i believe is better when the products are predigested in a lab / factory - done right - compared to homemade ( supposed to be ) predigested baits...

So why add predigested ingredients, you might ask, when ive claimed that it dosent promote growth in carp, answer: because the predigested ingredients got their chemoattractant abilities...

So to me - the enzymes makes sense to use as a suplement to trigger ( precurse ? ) enzyme activity / production in the carps guts... To gain the digestion / assimilation... ex. test ive read with added trypsin didnt improve anything... But the enzymes that makes carp produce trypsin - seems to be a valid option... Ive seen "papers" that indirectly confirms this...

or as Miasma recomends / suggest - as a dip - to get a active breakdown in the water as an attraction... ( when talking boilied / Heat treated baits )
- often wondered if a "pond clearerer" would be a nice bait dip, anyone tried this?

Enzymes as attractors - why not?
- Many seems top experience that carp likes human spit, theres enzymes in!
- if i remeber correct, Loeb seemed to conclude the same... ( not that it proves anything )...

But then again, is the aminos ( particular the Essential ones ), in their individual right/optimum form, really that important as a attractor?
- i doubt - that these are the end of all.... as test's on chemoreceptions shows that only 25% of the tested fish actually respond to these as we would like them to...

@ Pete
Your enzyme treated milkprotein bait at selby fish in, was it a combination of Casein and Casease?
- i think its interesting, had plans to test "cheese ripe" with Skimmedmilkpowder, but whats stopped me was ( in the theory ) it could produce casein ( insoluble ) - but i believe the end product first become attractive when its solouble, therefore i wanted to use the Casein + Casease instead - as it produces hydrolysed solouble casein, the only think that have stopped me from doing it is that i got no casease...

PS: Theres some really interesting info on enzymes, and LT Production, suited for our use, in the book: "Surimi and Surimi Seafood" Second Edition Edited by Jae W Park published by Taylor & Francis Group...

All interesting stuff but excuse me if I think it's loosing a bit of focus. Are we talking about increasing nutrient availability and therefore increasing it's attraction, straight chemoreception e.g. fooling the carp into thinking a bait is something it isn't, or a combination. What is the aim ?

A lot is known about the carp's digestive system and the enzymes it contains which enable it to deal with it's varied food sources. These have evolved to enable a carp to obtain maximum nutrition from available food sources. If we accept the food bait principle then a bait that most closely matches the carps nutritional requirements will be more successful. Such a bait therefore will by definition contain all the attraction (food signals) required. Little mentioned has been made on here of the varying nutritional requirements of different size, age, sex, strain of carp, so we are also therefore going to be looking for a compromise, unless of course some of you are designing baits with specific fish in mind in wish case good luck. This may explain why some baits work on some waters and not on others. Tim Paisley for example has often said he uses Grange Red because it catches big commons.

Now to me I want a bait that will catch lots of fish if I have some control over the others variables. I already have such baits.

Going down the enzyme route especially the route that uses enzymes not already possessed by the carp seems strange. If the carp needed them then surely it would have them ? If the carp already has them then why add more to the bait ?

Are we being guilty of using bait ingredients not ideally suited to the carp and then have to chmically manipulate them so they are ?

Should we not be looking at the commonalities of what carp eat in a "normal" situation and the enzymes they already have to enable them to digest this food.

Sorry I'm rambling 'cos I'm not sure where we are trying to get to.

Cy.

whats realy a big difference in natural food items and man made feeds - is that the naturals comes with enzymes in - needed to digest them - as its often enzymes carp dont produce themselves, these "foreign" enzymes either help the digestion or "trigger" carps internal enzyme activity...

Enzymes added to gain/help/support digestion, wich carp dont produce allready, - could be possible attractors - as carps natural food allso contain these...

I sometimes make baits after carps age and its suroundings, not sex and strain etc. though a common or mirror must have different natural requirements because of the scale maintainance and such...

"Are we being guilty of using bait ingredients not ideally suited to the carp and then have to chmically manipulate them so they are ?"
Yes - ex. many carb sources we ad to boilierecipes arent really suited ( optimum ) to carp before theyre boilied... But not when it comes to fishmeal or casein, as proved by scientists if these are hydrolysed carp dont grow or survive better than with standard non hydrolysed products ( when it comes to protein )...

I believe that enzymes can be added to boost attraction plus to help digetion / assimilation - wich on longterm basis can be a sort of attraction to... or can be an attractor on its own - if its enzymes the natural food contains / secretes, enzymes carp dont produce themselves...

Thanks Jesper for your thoughts. You mention that carp don't grow any better on hydrolysed protein compared to non-hydrolysed, but is hydrolysed more "attractive" ? And forgive me, but belief is different from proof, can you prove your theory ? Finally and sorry about the questions but I not really into enzymes (yet) where would you say spirolina fits in (if at all) I've seen some interesting papers in it role in digestion and enzymes and nutrition and it's begining to be included in baits more frequently, notibly by Cal.

Cy.

Quote:

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Enzymes as attractors - why not?
- Many seems top experience that carp likes human spit, theres enzymes in!
- if i remeber correct, Loeb seemed to conclude the same

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Sorry to ne a party pooper but Loeb concludes that Saliva, Eartworm extract and a few other bits and bobs provoke a postitive feeding reaction....most of what we use as'triggers' are a waste of time

In fact, having just scannned Loeb's paper it does not actually mention enzymes, other than the comment
''the old fishermans standby of spitting on a bait may have some basis in fact''

Len’s Black magic was a paste with added amino acids (gly, meth, arg, cys I think) for the purposes of attraction rather than a bait where enzymes were added to break down protein within the bait.

Ditto Duncan’s red slyme, sodium or calcium caseinate & layers mash which I seem to remember smelling like cucumber and sticking to everything that came near it! The cork butts on my old glass rods never did recover!

Black Slyme was a yeast based bait I think, you could boil that one so don’t think it was an amino or enzyme based as such.

Never used the yellow one.

Also I can’t remember anything being written by Duncan on Enzymes but I can recall him talking a lot about amino acids when he and Kevin Maddocks used to do presentations at the old CAA meetings in Gillingham.

Then again I’d accept that you may know something I don’t.

What direction are we going in? Guess we are questioning if including enzymes within a bait is worth the cost and effort before we get back to seeing if we can make Dean’s a sure fire commercial success!

There’s some interesting stuff in these posts, not got time to respond at the moment in detail as time for tea. I’ll try to bash something out later if my four-week-old daughter decides to go to sleep!

@ Miasma
Why have you deleted your posat with the "Physiochemical" thingy ??

@ Dandare
Yes that what i ment... but - remember wether Loeb find one thing to have negative response in his test, same stuff can have positive effect in other test's or in combination with other products, some products / ingredients need others to be "positive"... A good ex. on this i Maddocks experiemnt with amino acid combinations, im sure he didnt try all possible combinations, and though he did test a lot - then carp still could show another reaction in his tank than they would in antoher tank or real lake... i remeber him mention the combination "number 37" as the best result... But if the man did open scientific books on the subject, written ten years before his experiments, im sure it would have saved him from a lot af headache and time, and even give him a better result...

Hi Yates, its not my theory, its whats written in scientific books and papers, and yes "i" could prove this by the papers, just have to dig the right sources out of the library, wich can take some time...
Im not sure on spirulinas effect after boiling, and havent used it serious in test angling yet...

no matter whats written in books by either scientists or anglers, then its the real results in angling situations that count, we may not forget that...

"Your enzyme treated milkprotein bait at selby fish in"

It wasn't a bait it was an active enzymatic digest... it eats boilies with protein in... Getting somewhat off topic methinks.. I never use Milks, their amino profile is wrong for a carp... you have to flaff around with too many other ingredients to get it right and I can't be bothered...
Whatever protein you use, check out the amino profile... and enzymes (specifically those not present in a carp's gut) can be a positive benefit...

cut that one a bit short pete didnt ya? Got a feeling that that was a bit of a watered down version mate !!!! would u care to elaborate a tad on that last reply???

No...

Cal, never having used Spirulina, what ingrediants are actually in it...I see where you're coming from, why not just liquidise Spirulina and roll boilies from it in its own right?...even better would be an actual ingrediants listing, main Protein and Carb content could be any manner of things, liopids a lttle easier to suss..if its that effective as a feed it would be far more use to know the makeup....intant base mix

Come to that has anyone actually tried making pure Spirulina boilies? , costly, yes, but if you can make the base......

Spirulina.. an expensive waste of time..

Hi Pete, bloody quick reply , but it would be interesting to know if anyone actally has tried it as a base in its own right

Tell me this then,is there any range ie extreme heat or cold ,where enzymes work best?(sorry talking water temp}obviously taking into account the variable ph of any given water? or is ph only a consideration when talking about effective attractors within any given bait??? and while we r on the subject,surely the initial attraction of any given bait is wots most important,unless of course by supplying the carp wiv so much readily available food over a longer period we dont feel the need for instant attraction.we have already achieved attraction through consistant availability,have we not?

"but it would be interesting to know if anyone actally has tried it as a base in its own right"
Played with it enough to know it is not what a few crack it up to be..amino profile is wrong...


Dean...
"is there any range ie extreme heat or cold ,where enzymes work best?(sorry talking water temp}obviously taking into account the variable ph of any given water?"

+ or - X temperature multiplied by the pH variance from 7 + x Y = what you are looking for...

"surely the initial attraction of any given bait is wots most important"

It is... however you have to study what a carp can detect in terms of food.. once you do that the path becomes clear...

Dont be cryptic pete, and i was always crap at algebra.u and i both know that for any, and imean ANY,given substance 2 have any substantial attraction to a carp, it must be below a certain ph or above a certtain ph,5 and 9 respectively,so wots the bloody 7 for?

I bet he fell of his rocking chair laughing at that one .

No cal hes probably shaking his wine fuddled head thinking,has that boy taken on board a word ive said,and my reply 2 that would be>>> i am but a man who strives to better himself ,but does not claim to ever know enuf,we both know he knows his stuff ,but he plays games with me !! dont ya???

OK we are going all over the place now, lets see if we can get some order back to this……then again maybe I’ll just go for a wander.

Lets start at the beginning. What is it you want to achieve from your baits? Obvious I guess, you want them to catch fish.

The next question to me has to be for how long? If you are looking at a long-term relationship with a lake then there is no doubt in my mind that the best approach is to apply a bait to the water. If you do that with a bait the fish will accept in the long term then you can just forget about it and get on with putting the rest of the equation together. You know that if you put that bait in front of a feeding fish on an acceptable presentation then you will catch them. Yes you can catch them on a bit of plastic corn but it’s just not tipping the odds in your favour enough. Every time you go fishing you only have as much change as you did the last time you went. With an established bait your chances increase each visit.

A bait they will accept in the long term….what’s that exactly? Fred taught us about nutritional recognition. From my own experiences, that of others I have either read about or spoken to I’m convinced it exists. Controversial bit again – it exists from the first time the fish come across the bait and it builds as they gain confidence in eating it. Don’t believe in instant nutritional recognition? Then ask yourself what is the common denominator in substances that attract carp……want a clue?…….starts with F ends in D and there are a couple of O’s in the middle. If the bait you are using is made of sawdust but full of attractors that smell like food then you are still catching on the basis of nutritional recognition, you are just not going to be able to maintain the elusion for very long.

Food baits are their own attractors; don’t confuse the fish by trying to make them smell like something else. Take a look at the bloodworm products that are available on the market. Got to get on that cos it’s what they eat in nature! Really? You spend months trying to understand what a fish needs from its food. Weeks of working out how to include those nutrients within your bait at the optimum levels, days trying to get it to roll properly and then you try to make it “smell” like something they find every day. I can’t understand the logic of that one. I want my baits to “smell” different, I want the fish to recognise that difference so that once they are trained to pick them up without caution it’s me that gains the benefit. (Please note the use on the “” around smell they guys)

So we have a lake that we are going to fish over a number of years. We establish a bait so we can forget about it. We know that bait needs to provide a nutritional benefit to carry on working. We know not to mess it up by filling it up with “smells” that will confuse the fish. That’s the start of a beautiful relationship.

This bit is in danger of sounding even more condescending that the bit above, sorry but I’m trying to keep this as short as I can so it will come over badly.

If your reading this stuff and thinking it all sounds a little dull and when is he going to tell me about the stuff I can add to my baits that will turn me into a superstar I want you to stop and ask yourself some questions. How well equipped are you to actually go out and do what I’ve been talking about. Do you have the necessary equipment to make up and store bait in the amounts you need to be able to establish it on your lake? Do you have a group of friends to help you? Do you have the state of mind to see it through? Do you know where to source the ingredients at a price you can afford? I’m willing to bet the majority don’t. If your one of them then stop dreaming about enzymes, magic powders and secret attractors and focus on those basics. Understanding enzymes isn’t going to help you! Get the basics right and you are well up the bait curve on your water.

God that’s a long post and I’m not even started yet. More to come in the next instalment….assuming anyone is interested!

Getting back to Enzymes particularly proteases, as Pete mentioned ''It wasn't a bait it was an active enzymatic digest... it eats boilies with protein in...'' at what state do you wish to pre-digest the meal to?
''Whatever protein you use, check out the amino profile... and enzymes (specifically those not present in a carp's gut) can be a positive benefit...'' out of curiosity and a big learning curve for me, an active pepsin enzyme?

Cal....hole in one M8

Pepsin.......or Carboxypeptidase?

I'm sensing a pH problem baitwise.....unless its a multi-staged process...

IN reply to WayneTs last post. I personally do not make bait,but I love reading about it. I find so much information contained within posts like this,that help me greatly to understand so much more than just "BAIT". Postings like this are the real "gems" of carp forums

It would be fair to say,I dont have the drive,money,knowhow,storgae facilities,equipment and so on to make bait.

But I really appreciate the input from the likes of PeteB,Miasmia,Jesper,yourself,Andy Jack,cal and so on.

Please keep it up guys,because some of us find so much more in postings like this.

kind regards Jeff

Now there comes a point,when we must all ask ourselves,at wot point do we stop our crusade 4 perfection in a bait ,b4 we dissapear up our own arsehole??There r always going to be those that will strive to create wot we all dream ,(the bait, or the ultimate bait)PeteB etc bcos they have the iQ ,Brains or whatever u call it to take on board information and make sense and effectively utilise wot they have read.Now the real burning question,which i know everyone is dying 2 ask is just how far can we go with this? wot level of attraction can we consistantly achieve,?and,the question i started this bdebate with, is the use of enzymes in a bait commercially viable? And affordable to joe public??????

"I'm sensing a pH problem baitwise.....unless its a multi-staged process"

Bait pH is one of the governing factors in choosing a suitable enzyme (or enzymes)...

Carboxypeptidase Beta is an interesting substance...

Think about when (or if) and how you want to kill the process Miasma and you will not go far wrong...

Wayne, the mechanics of this may be beyond individuals but it is possible.. and it works!

One further complication... to get the best out of enzyme combinations you have to look at what bond in a protein an enzyme works on...

There appears to be somewhat of a mind-set within carp anglers and bait manufacturers
as to what constitutes an optimal retail price.
The ceiling appears to hover around £10/Kilo,which seems to accomodate a satisfactory
profit margin and which anglers are prepared to pay.
If an enzyme triggered bait enters the market at that level,and it can demonstrate
an equal or,preferably,increased efficiency, then it will succeed.

I wouldn't pay £10/Kilo either way......

Peter...I can think of one way of stopping it..Whoops..answered my own question..

OK ,now i aint knocking the people that do,and im definately not disrespecting anybody, but who the fcuk pays £10 kg for any bait,regardless of how good it is??? Iwould assume that the majority of people that spend any amount of time on this forum have at least a basic knowledge of bait costings ie raw material costs,and by christ it would have 2 b a bit special for me 2 pay anywhere near that!!

As I've already said,neither would I.....however....£10/Kilo for frozen bait ranges
is the norm for most bait companies.
Would you sell for cost price?....what about labour...storage...advertising etc?

Have u asked yourself why the price of a kg of bait currently stands at £10 ??????

Because,as with a host of other examples within the UK,it is the price the market
will bear.......

commercial viability,is very achievable in this field to the extent that i can assure any reader of this popular topic that no one should expect to pay £10 kg for any bait no matter wot its company claims it can achieve.Bait prices seem to start their increase when one of the big boys bring something new out that they claim to be the all singing,all dancing best thing ever, when most times all thats been done is a tweak here and a tweak there to an existing bait with an already proven track record,the other big guns then continue the trend by raising their prices,not wishing to look inferior!!! now this may ruffle a few feathers but,hey ,who cares,flavours catch more anglers than fish,(fact)and so called big household names in our beloved sport,rely on the names of top?anglers 2 put their names to baits that i and u know they have never caught on or probably have never even used!how sad that the new and younger anglers have to,sorry the parents of these boys have to cough up for their kids who believe that they have to have the newest bait to achieve any modicum of success, i eagerly await the day when watercraft,and an instict aquired through a few yrs experience replaces this crcus that we have 2day!ready made rigs and custom baits 2= the readymade angler regardless of age or experience.dont know where ive gone with this ,and im completely so i a will apologise and get off my soap box, and figure out how to uncork this next bottle of red???

Ultimate bait consists of one ounce in ten of pure liver extract(not powder). Silly money, but what the f'ck, as I,m sure Pete will confirm coupled with the right "other" 90 percent this is untouchable, you can call it active or whatever you want.

£10 per Kg is a bargain.

The bait I used last season cost about £1.25 per Kg to produce.

Contradiction?

Not at all. If I was fishing a circuit water and there was a going bait on there then I’d use it. If it cost me £10/kg then I’d call that cheap, as I wouldn’t need to pre-bait. If the world and his wife were chucking it in for me then 10kg would probably last me the best part of a season!

That’s how some people think and to be honest it’s a valid argument even if it does play into the hands of the “snake oil” salesmen.

Been out on the Guinness tonight so the following is rather disjointed.

……………………..

If you buy ready rolled bait from the freezer in your local tackle shop then you are not buying the same stuff they sell in the buckets that you mix up. That’s because the stuff in the buckets will not go through a rolling machine they use to make the stuff in the freezer.

Don’t believe me? Read the rather bazaar bait chapter uncle Jim’s book where Gary Baynes actually admits it!

To be frank, that’s a con!

……………………………………

We have the commercial world of bait, we have the home produced one. Is there any significant difference in effectiveness between them? Home produced bait made from ingredients sourced from outside the bait firms gives you the opportunity to establish your own food source and keep the benefits between you and your mates at an affordable cost. Using a bait from your local tackle shop freezer allows you to jump on the bandwagon and take your chances along with everyone else. The cost is probable comparable (assuming you bait in moderation when you fish) between the two options but the first one feels a whole lot better!

…………………………………..

Lets assume for a second that baits where the protein has been partially digested by enzymes are nutritionally superior to those where it hasn’t. So what? Just how much difference would it actually make in a real world situation?

How many more fish would the enzyme bait catch over the course of, say , 2 seasons than the same bait without enzymes – assuming both were applied to a water equally well? What would be the cost implications? The manufacturing implication? The storage implications?

You can manufacture a very, very good bait for no more than a couple of pounds a Kg (dry weight) that would have the capacity to catch you any fish you want. If you don’t know what to put in it then just read the posts on this site and you will find everything you need to know.

……………………………..

How much guiness did u have Wayne? u sure u didnt have any amphetamine??? So r u saying that u think that ahalf decent bait applied properly would do just as well as one with effective enzymes ?

So when someone comes along with a boiled version of effective enzymes Kevin r u going to accept this or make ur judgement when every angler and his dog has caught well on it? U should not have 2 wait long now mate cos i believe vision baits have got a bait out called ENZYME M come the start of summer!!!!!!

oooh u crafty bugger CAL I knew there was summit about that bait i liked

Vision Baits Enzyme M...hrmmm.......I await with interest...
I wonder what their price structure will be? ....

got 2 admit it will be quite interesting,i only read about it 2day in advanced carp so time will tell my friend!!!!!

Oh my aching head. I learnt long ago to be caution when placing finger on keyboard when I’ve had too much of the black stuff. The problem is I always forget when I’m under the influence!

Kevin – I’ll concede the point of freezer vs shelflife, well kind off. Would it make sense for a company to invest in rolling machinery but only use it for their selflife product range? Perhaps. I’ve not purchased ready rolled bait for years so I’m not really qualified but rumours are rife! I do accept your point about paying to have your bait rolled, but it’s not really relevant to the point I was trying to make.

Vision baits are about to release a bait containing enzymes. I can’t wait for that. Guess I’ll start saving up now.

Talking of vision baits did anyone see the article by Tony Mills in the latest Advanced Carp? Had some classic lines in their that had the tears rolling down my face.

Q I want to produce a 100 % milk-protein bait…..Where can I buy egg albumin?

Classic one don’t you think!

I see there is a reference to the enzyme M bait in the response to that question, “contains a blend of high-protein milks” in it. Yum. Nothing like making things difficult for yourself when focusing on first limiting amino acid in formulating a bait.

Was a little surprised at the response to question 2 as well. I would have thought that he would have recognised a quote from Fred Wilton, especially one so famous and amusing. What is the term they use these days? Fred giving us a bit of therapy. Classic stuff.

Enzymes - can’t get away from them can we?

When Peter talks I tend to listen and as usual he has me thinking again but before talking about that and give you all a good laugh I’d like to stress the points I made before.

Put together a bait containing a blend of simple proteins with an amino acid profile matched to the needs of carp. Spare that protein with a quality lipid source and don’t add substances that have enzyme (that word again) inhibitors. Source those ingredients at a reasonable price and equip yourself to be able roll and store it in sufficient quantities. Don’t confuse the carp by adding the wrong “attractors”. Learn how to apply it to a water correctly. Do all that and you will have a bait that will catch on any water. Only once you can get that far is it worth worrying about trying to go any further. From a lot of what I read and hear from supposed experts there are still those who don’t get it despite everything you need to know being in the public domain.

Long post again and still not got to the enzyme bit have I? Think I’ll have a little drink and do it as a separate post………Blah…………there I go forgetting the lessons I’ve leaned again.

You use Ovomucoid free eggs and dont heat above 60C then Wayne ? .....

I just know someone would pick up on that bit Miasma, I should have said minimise perhaps.

OK for what it’s worth here’s my take on enzymes.

<enter health warning here>

As I already said I believe that food baits are there own “attractors”. I can see breaking the bait down by the use of enzymes would add to that attraction and improve the bait. From that viewpoint there inclusion is valid I guess. However, lets stick with improving the digestibility of protein.

If you want to start to understand why you would want to add enzymes to your bait to improve it nutritionally then you need to start by looking at the carp’s digestive process.

When a carp fish picks up food it enters the mouth where it is assessed for suitability. The buccal cavity is full of taste buds so it is reasonable to assume these have a roll to play in the acceptability of the food. That’s not really relevant to digestion so lets move on.

Next the food passes to several pairs of pharyngeal teeth that sit below a kind of leathery pad arrangement. Now we are getting somewhere. The food is ground up between the teeth and these pads. There is no enzyme activity at this point (as far as I remember) , just a mechanical process. The teeth are very efficient at grinding and quite able to cope with hard substances.

Next it passes through a duct call the oesophagus, again full of taste buds.

Next we come to the big sack thing. This used to confuse people into thinking it was a stomach but it isn’t. This is significant and I suspect where a lot of thinking behind the use of supplementary enzymes comes in.

If carp had a stomach (as we do) then it would mean that they had an initial protein digestion process where an enzyme called pepsin would start to get to work. Pepsin only does it s stuff at low ph (2ish from memory) and a specific temperature range around 37C. Remember I said before that protein is made up of chains of amino acids liked together by bonds? Pepsin attacks these bonds and starts to breakdown the protein into smaller chains. The bonds it can break are probable dependant on the type of amino acids either side of them but I can’t really remember now and can’t be bothered to look it up as its not really that important to the explanation. I’ll come back to pepsin a little later as its significant.

Ducts carrying bile (‘orrible green stuff)and enzymes from the gall bladder and pancreas enter the carp's intestine (before the sack I think) and are mixed with the ground up food. The enzymes the carp uses to digest protein are trypsin and chymotrypsin. These enzymes work at a PH range of..(god I’ve forgotten!) but its somewhere around neutral (7). The food and enzymes pass along the intestine, the enzymes smash up the protein and the resulting amino acids are absorbed. Once it gets to the end it gets crapped out. That’s about it really. What is left in the fish poop is the part of the food they couldn’t digest. Ever seen the picture of carp crapping out bait in the mags after they have been caught? That’s the bit they got no benefit from, makes you think don’t it?

Lets get back to this lack of stomach thing. Because carp don’t have one and hence don’t have a pepsin stage we consider that they are rather inefficient at digesting protein. It’s the reason that they can’t cope with levels over 40% odd. When Peter talks about looking at the enzymes that carp don’t possess then I suspect that this is what he is talking about.

So that’s it then all we need to do is bung some pepsin in our bait and we are on the road to glory. Well no actually. As I said pepsin is a funny old bugger and it needs very low Ph value and specific temperature to work. Creating that environment within your bait isn’t going to be easy. You also need to think about how acceptable it would be to a carp as it would have a very bitter taste. Ever swallowed your own sick? Not nice is it! The final thing to remember is that it gets destroyed about about 70c (from memory so don’t shoot me).

If you want to find the holy grail of carp fishing go find yourself an enzyme that performs the same action as pepsin, that does it at an acceptable PH level and is tolerant to temperature. You’ll also need to workout how and when to stop it doing its stuff or you will not have any bait left by the time you get to the lake!

Peter seems to have found one, but then he has a massive advantage due to his job (not to mention years of experience and out and out hard work). If you want to go looking then best of luck, you’ll need it!

That’s about all I know about that.

i commend u on your last post young Wayne,especsially after a nite on the lash as well !!!!!there will be those out there who will thank u for your easily understandable style and who r now able to get their heads round this most taxing subject of ENZYMES well done mate now iknow uve had a late one pete but i think a little clarification wouldnt go a miss mate

Like Wayne said Kevin,Tony mills ,ithink,said it would be available later in the year in advanced carp,we:ll just have 2 wait and see ????????

When u think u can get 500gr for £2.60 that is taking the [censored] somewhat eh?

(When u think u can get 500gr for £2.60 that is taking the [censored] somewhat eh)

Your still paying £1 per 500gr too much

i know sorry

u dont mess with the TRIADS down this end ,and if they want £2.60 then thats wot their getting but seriously,where do i get it cheaper????

No bait can be made incorporating multiple pH levels.....Pepsin is optimal at a
pH level of 2.0....Amylase,Trypsin and Lipase do not operate at this level.
To initiate digestion using "non carp" methods would involve the selection of
enzymes operating within a more alkaline environment.
This,to me,would preclude the use of Pepsin....but there are others that would
be capable of doing so....
However..having sorted out the pH conundrum,we have to consider the denaturing effect
of temperature...
If someone has overcome these problems and produced a viable bait then I applaud
them.....it will not have been easy.....

Incidentally...Microbial Enzymes operate over a very much wider range of both pH
and temperature...but thats another story....

Very nice, very interesting and all the usual presumptious entrenched crap about about 'food' baits....

two things....

1,A mature Carps dietry requirement is less than 40% protien.

2,Protien is not the most efficient way of fuelling a carps Energy requirments.

And ur point is exactly ? without stating the obvious?

Energy does not equate to Growth....or repair of damaged tissue...

R we not talking or taking into consideration the long term benifits of the carp, and correct me if im wrong,but surely overall health and wellbeing of our prey is of prime importance???? why would we concern ourselves wiv energy levels when we have continued to provide the carps dietry requirements throughout the year unless they have dropped u a line and told u they r in training for a sponsored swim????

Moxy on NCFF forum has just come up with a beaut...

Soap powder - all the companies are into lipid busting enzymes these days to breakdown grease and dirt at washing machine temperatures.

Daz or Persil then......

Perhaps not

Yes,I agree that energy levels are important...and it bears upon your first point
in that excess protein is converted and used as an energy source.
That which does not, donates to the environment...one way or another...

Just got back from fishing so only have time for a quick response..

”Protien is not the most efficient way of fuelling a carps Energy requirments.”

What do you think “Spare that protein with a quality lipid source” means exactly?

“A mature Carps dietry requirement is less than 40% protien.”

“It’s the reason that they can’t cope with levels over 40% odd”. The “dietary requirements for protein” as you call it is governed by their ability to digest them.

What I wrote focused on protein because that is what people seem to be interested in. I was not advocating the use on enzymes, I thought I’d made my position clear on that point earlier. What I was attempting to do was share some information with those who may have been interested.

“usual presumptious entrenched crap about about 'food' baits....”.

I use food baits in the situation I outlined earlier, during a long-term campaign on a water. I do that because experience has taught me that it is the most consistent way to catch. I will also use almost any type of bait that I feel is appropriate to the situation I’m fishing in – particles, singles, naturals, meat, pellets, go knows what else. I don’t think that’s entrenched, do you?

"Whats their role in the general scheme of things"

The number one source of energy..??

Let's get this into perspective.. this 40% figure comes about from aquaculture feed manufacturers, they are no guide to actual requirement, just budgetary constraints.. and this word Protein covers a multitude of things, some useable by the carp, some not... and guess what governs whether it is useful or not.. yep.. its that damn amino profile again...

So, discounting protein sources with a totally useless amino profile, any bait containing proteins with the correct (when mixed) amino profiles will be utilised by the carp as much as its digestive system will allow.. Enzymes simply make the process easier/more efficient for the carp.. if a bait was for instance 80% protein and of a good amino profile that bait could (theoretically) provide the carp's energy and tissue generation properties without lipids.. add lipids as well and the carp will use all the protein for tissue generation.. Simplified, I know, but more or less there..

Enzymes also have certain advantages in making peptide chains/aminos readily available in the vacinity of the bait.. and what do carp use as a signal to detect food?

anyone using milks + enzymes without supplementary protein sources needs a check up from the neck up... FLAA will reduce its effectiveness by around 67%..

Miasma, you are correct.. Pepsin is not an option..

Soap powder.. now why didn't I think of that... Thermolysin isn't it??

Miasma...

Just to get the old grey cells ticking over.. how about three different enzymes... one that is destroyed at above 40 degrees, one that functions best at +30 degrees and another that functions best at between 20 and 30 degrees all within an optimal pH around 6.2.. added (maybe) at different stages.. one as a 'dip'...

Multi-staging...I can come to terms with the "Dip" element....the other concepts
could prove challenging....I need more time...

To give you a laugh......investigating suitable enzyme candidates provided an interesting
but brief diversion.
When I grasped the fact that prices were being quoted per milligram,in the words of
the Sunday newspapers...."I made my excuses and left".....

But then....I have'nt got the right connections......

"that prices were being quoted per milligram"

You are looking at 100% pure and of Pharma grade.. set your sights a tad lower... it's not really that frightening.. China and India are the best sources...

Ahh!....I was in the wrong continent...$land....

So that`s one or more suitable protease enzymes in the paste allowed to do their business,then stopped by the boiling stage.
A second stage added perhaps as a glug and kept under control by cooling with a third stage in the form of a dip???

Are enzymes adversely affected at normal freezing temperatures???

Quote:

---

No bait can be made incorparating multiple pH levels

---

How about two different base mixes, with different PH levels... mixed into paste and rolled together 50/50.. 60/40... 70/30 etc...?
Much the same as multi coloured baits of the past...

You could, if you were that way inclined.. make it a 3 stage bait by doing the above.. now imagine a bait rolled like this.. ( | ) where the '(' and ')' broke down at differing rates.. leaving you still fishing with the '|'...

Hassle I know.. but worth it?

This is interesting stuff, but read this as a health warning.

"The nutrition of fish has been studied for more than 50 years, and has received generous funding by governments and other organisations worldwide. As a result, tangible progress has been made in defining the nutrient requirements of fish, improving feed manufacturing practices, and in establishing improved feeding practices. At the same time it must be said that the field of fish nutrition is in chaos and our real knowledge of fish nutrition is much less than it should be as we enter the 21st Century.

Unfortunately, high standards of technical and intellectual rigour, which are the norm in other fields of nutritional science, continue to be found only rarely in fish nutrition research. In fact, the field continues to be dominated by some of the poorest quality research ever published in the field of nutritional science. It is most unfortunate, for example, that the U.S. NRC Sub-Committee on Fish Nutrition continues to propagate the untenable notion of interspecies differences in nutrient requirements among salmonids in the face of rigorous evidence that it is most unlikely. Likewise, it is simply unacceptable that this committee perpetuates the confusion among fish nutritionists over the very simple distinction between nutrient requirements and recommended levels and continues its failure to understand the need to consider energy requirements in order to quantify nutrient requirements in a meaningful way. Such ignorance is not permitted to prevail in any other area of nutritional science, but it has been dominant in fish nutrition for at least 40 years. The greatest challenge for fish nutrition as we enter the 21st Century is to effect an about-face to become driven by scientific rigour rather than by unquestioned acceptance of research claims that amount to little more than folklore. To this end, the greatest need is for a critical mass of fish nutritionists with both bona fide expertise in nutritional science and the strength of character to think and act with independently."

Cy.