How can you condition a wild animal to accept something it finds repulsive?

In the above mentioned test, by using Serine, it was noticed, Quote: " The carp showed signs of respaitory difficulties, eyes rolling and obvious distress"

Explain why you think the tests were flawed...

Sos to step away from the bait issue! But if what roobish is saying about carp learning from previous experiences, then what is ultimately being said is that carp can think and also have the ability to remember substances, flavours, and if it is good or bad for it. This would mean that a carp maintains more than a few minutes memory span and if the memory span is learnt from past experience this would mean that a carp has the ability to think in a much wider way than we thought. It would still be a very primitive thought process, but a thought process all the same. Fish bolt from danger and understand where safety lies for example. This understanding that fish can sometimes think especially when faced with danger has been known by anglers for some time , hence the reasons why thousands of us are convinced that fish can through experience learn from mistakes. But what limits can we place on the carps cognitive learning ability.
Sight. fish can see us on the bank and are very aware of our presence, they also have colour vision, and see the world very different from us. The vision of a carp looking out at us can be hindered by reflection very much the same as us trying to look through the reflection of the sky. only the carp sees the reflection of its surroundings. Then we have the lateral line that can detect our movements via vibration. Plus leads hitting the water and maybe even hitting the bottom. One example of fish learning was the scene where Chris Yates places a dummy beside the lake. Fish at first keep away but learn that the figure is harmless, that is at least until Chris takes its place. What I am getting at is that fish do have long term memories, could be why Im blanking at the moment, they recognise me from years ago!!lol. So if this is true which most of us would agree with, then why should a carp not have the capability to decern good bait bad bait dangerous bait safe bait etc. On an higher level I would agree that fish can detect very miniscule amounts of possible food sources via smell, i do not know what ratio to water but I would think it is small. Ok I know that fish are primative in thought process but all the same cognitive thought processes exist. many of us have seen fish eating bait in the wild and there reactions to line, hooked bait etc, and are dumbfounded to see that on many occasions the baited hook is either tried and ejected or completely ignored.? We may conclude from this thread that the carp is a complex fish with the ability to use its brain in a cognitive way, it also can use it in an overt way again only primative but still displays of overt behavior. i cannot speak about my findings on bait additives, but what I can say is that it is possible to enhance a bait that the carp can detect at some distance and that the substances used can be detected by the fish. The other thing I can say is that again a ballance must be made and a wrong substance in a mix will lead to a blank. We must also be aware of what aminos can do if used incorrectly. Remember that acids are ineffect substances that help to start the process of breakdown of bait! Which leads back to the digestive system.

An excellent post Animal and one I would like to comment on.

Carp do indeed have a long-term memory. There is a wonderful video that shows their conditioned behavior that I would like someone to dig out for us. Someone played their fish Bach and Beethoven (I think) and only fed them when Beethoven was playing. After a month, they were able to tell the difference between Beethoven and Bach and looked uninterested when Bach was playing. However, they were very excited when Beethoven was played to them and all started rooting. A clear indication of both the memory of a carp and their ability to learn. While Petsmart might tell us that goldfish have short-termed memories to make us feel less guilty about buying a pint-glass of a tank for a fish, it is well known that carp have a memory and do learn. My own carp get very excited when I turn the tank pump off - they zip to the top of the tank waiting for their food they know I will give them. I've seen them do the same in a powercut.

What this tells us is that tank tests with carp have to be looked at more closely. How long were the carp in the tank? Carp learn very quickly and there is a very well documented method of getting carp into an area by sound alone. You think that carp turn up to areas where ducks are being fed by accident? No, they come there because they have learned that food is there. Similarly that's why carp sometimes wait around boat docs as they know that they will be fed.

The point about amino acids and concentration is an excellent one and another thing we should be very wary of. The concentration a carp is use to is much lower than we would imagine. Don't forget they are after small things in the mud that don't emit much. There are amino acids that lead to better stimulation in more general terms than those that you can teach a carp to respond to. Those are the ones that it will come across in the wild and associate with food. Let's talk about which these might be.

Roobish

That's from Kevin Maddocks, right? If so, I'll read the study again tonight and tell you why.

Yes its taken from carp fever.

Very good reaction.

Valine
Lysine

Combination No 35
Phenylanine/Lysine/Cystine

Fair reaction

Phenylalanine
Histidine
Glycine
Isoleucine
Asparagine


Poor reaction

Alanine
Proline
Cystine

Combination No 31
Asparagine/isoleucine/Glycine/histidine/Phenylalanine

Combination No 37
Tyrosine/Lycine/Phenylalanine

No reaction

Methionine.DL
Argenine
Glutamine
Threonine
Leucine
Serine*
Phenylalanine.DL
Tyrosine
Aspartic Acid
Glutamic Acid
Methionine

All Acids were L-versions

Conclusion
After having spent a whole season using the best of the single or combinations of acids indicated by the tank tests our results were still inconclusive

It was John Lee Hooker and a Bach Oboe concerto....and although that is certainly
indicative of a "conditioned reflex" does it equate to "memory"?

From Dr. Keith Sykes "Chemestry of Chemoreception":

The charactaristics of olfactory stimulating amino acids / primary response:

1) Both x(alpha)Amino and x(alpha) carboxyl groups are essential.
2) The x(aplha)Hydrogen must be free, and preferably the B(beta)Hydrogen.
3) The size of fourth MOIETY is an important factor determining effectivness.
4) L-Isomers are more stimulatory than D-Isomers.
5) Amino Acids are best polar or uncharged.
6) The number of carbon atoms within the amin acid should be between 3 and 5.
7) The addition of a Gydroxy group generally reduces effectivness i.e. Proline > HydroxyProline.

Highly stimulating amino acids:
L-Arginine
X-Amino Butyric Acid +*
x-Amino Caproic Acid +*
x-Amino Valeric Acid +*
L-Citrulline
L-Cysteine
Clycine
L-Histidine
L-Methionine
L-Ornithine
note: + is essential to use x(alpha) forms
note: * These aminos are products of metabolic activities, and not present in natural occurring proteins.
One further point of interest is that most highly stimulatory amino acids have their peak activity between an aqueous pH of 5.0 and 6.0. We can allso note that Iso-electric points of most highly stimulatory amino acids fall within this range.

Secondary response ( taste ):
Arginine, Cystine, Glycine, Glutamic Acid, Histidine*, Iso-leucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine*, Phenylalanine, proline, Taurine, Tryptophan, Tyrosine, Valine.
note: * these amino acids not only fulfill a taste response, but allso a primary response and are, finally, essential in carps dietary system. Such amino acids can then be used to very good effect to produce a combination of responses.

On the subject of sound. it is possible to get fish feeding in your swim via sound, but the equipment is expensive. saw a documentary about Dolphins that reacted to sound waves, this caused some interesting phenonema. I tried a similar experiment with birds useing a recorder, before long my garden was swamped with birds in search of food. the experiment went a touch deeper than that. But if a recording of a group of fish was made when they were feeding, and replayed at a later date, it would in theory be possible to draw fish into your baited area. I hope this is not the future for angling!