Can anyone tell me where I can purchase Provimi 66 fishmeal? Ive had a look at a few animal feed websites but no joy as yet. I beleive it is used in pig feeds.

How much do you want I live in northwich pm me I have some left from a sack I bought a month ago,not sure how much.

Bloodyhell mate thats a bit of a coincidence, I also live in Northwich, Anderton. Not sure how to PM you, pretty new to this game.Where did you get it?

W & H Marriage & Sons
01245 269663
Near Moulsham Mill,Parkway
Chelmsford Essex
CM2 7PX
3kg bags to 25kg sacks

try your ,ocal agricultural supplier, its real prices, i paid £7-8 for a 25kg sack when i bought it, and i saw it from some bait company in a magazine for £25!!!!
rip off

its common mate, every agricultural supplier will carry it, most farmers buy it by the ton so it very cheap,

and very good also, make sure the mice done get to it though, while your there get the calf milk replacer (Lam-lac etc) as you will proably need this if your making your own baits)

lofty

To send a pm to me just click my username "digger" and at the bottom of the page click on "send a private message".

As Lofty says look around and you will pick it cheap. I have seen it for sale locally for £12 for 25kg so you really should be paying any more than that for it. Some months back I phoned a certain well known Swindon tackle shop (mention no names ) and the guy quoted me £48.00 for 25kg!! No kidding!

I know the Swindon tackle store well. To say his prices are competitive is an understatement!!
I got some from Merlin baits at a good price. I wasn't using it in a base mix but was mixing it with course crushed hemp and adding NH2 from tails up to it and balling it out as a ground bait. It waorks very well

Tight lines

Barbus

Cheers lads, I think I should be able to aquire some now with this info and at the right price thanks to your advice. much appreciated, may you all be blessed with whackers!

I had a up to date price list from Marriges, just had a quick look but can't see it, I will get another tomorrow and will post prices if asked.

Hope this helps

its worth noteing that the very cheap prices only reallp apply to the common high temp fishmeals (Provimi 66 being the best example) if your getting low temp fishmeal (LT 99 etc Pete B might correct me) then its worth paying 4 times as much if your fishing a tricky pressured water that is very bait orientated,

Pete B where are you

lofty

P.S When i got mine they had some fiddle where by if they write on the reciept that they weighed it out as opposed to selling it by the sack you get it tax free, i'm not sure how it works but a gut who i know was working there sorted somthing out, its avoidance not evasion (incase you were worried!!)

Hi Lofty, how are you doing mate..?
Provimi can be obtained by phoning around 'Animal feed suppliers' in your local yellow pages.. expect to pay between £7 and £12 per sack...
LT meals, of which LT94 is one of the best, cost around £21 - 28 per sack.. they are better, but we are talking a difference that is down to fine lines and confidence.. it can make a difference, as Lofty says, on a pressured water...

Why the significant price difference if it`s essentially the same raw material only processed at a lower temperature?
What actually is the process run for producing these LT types.

I would have thought that a blend of several meals would be a better option,most commercial mixes seem to follow this path.

Another point.... LT meals are produced at a low temperature..... then we go and chuck it into boiling water!!!!

The process is more expensive Kev, but the benefits are there in terms of the final product.

Most big commercial fishmeal/feed producers are gradually phasing out high temperature fishmeal production. Processing at high temperatures causes evaporation of nutrients, especially some amino acids and denaturing.
Processing at lower temperatures significantly reduces this providing a higher nutritional value, particular in terms of the amino acid profile the final product contains.

LT is the way to go!

A useful, easily-understandable reference can be found at biomar.co.uk/images/FeedProduction.pdf

If their phasing out the high temp varieties for commercial fish/animal feeds then we`ll have no choice but to buy the LT`s,other than the old dross used for fertilisers which i wouldn`t knowlingly touch with a bargepole.
But as Mark states it all ends up getting lobbed into boiling water at the end of the day and there`s also the storage time and condition of the meals beforehand to be taken into consideration.
I know that Nev places the freshness of fishmeals at least equal to that of the supposed quality.
Not much point buying a tub of high quality base if it`s been sat on a shelf for a season which brings us back to that old chestnut of date stamping baits,bases and ingredients.

I bought a 25K sack 2 months ago, it'll last a year at the rate it's going, any idea what the likley shelf life is likley to be, nothing on the sack..cheers for any info..

It`s cheap enough to chuck out towards the end of the year.
I wouldn`t leave it over winter in a shed or garage as it`ll absorb moisture and rot.
You could use it up in pike groundbaits or mixed up with melted lard and food scraps for the birds and start again with a fresh supply next year.

Kev, I'll feed it to the dog as I keep nicking his mixers, and the other half's getting a bit angsty about it, cheers..

As Paul says, it's the costs, Provimi is a flame dried ruminant feed, although it is affective, it has certain limitations.
Lt94 is Herring meal, dried through a different process.. it is not necessary to include different meals in a bait as other ingredients will supplement the first limiting amino acid..

Just out of interest Pete how would you rate provimi against the lower quality lt meals lt 70 etc with ash contents around 14%. I ask because lt94 is not easy to source, where as the lower quality lt meals can be bought most places. I suppose what I am asking is do meals such as lt 70 offer any advantage over provimi?

Does anybody know of a supllier of provimi or lt94 in surrey or at least south of london.I have tried all the feed merchants local to me with no joy.Your help would be appreciated.

Marriages of chelmsford sell it for sure. I have had 50k of the stuff off them already this year. Be warned though they are not the cheapest £17.50 for 25k was the last price I payed + postage to north of Manchester. I am on the look out for a local supply, because it is costing me £10 a sack in courier fees. That all said their service has been second to none, they even managed a next day delivery at no extra cost, and I didnt phone my order through untill fairly late in the day. Also a guy at Marriages called Robert sourced a sack of (none of your business) for me even though it wasnt something they usually stock or sell, again no extra charge. If you cant get provimi local give them a bell: 01245 269663

Marriage`s -Very prompt service,shame they don`t sell 10kg quantites of meals mind you.

LT meals are not inherently superior mate
I don't know the breakdown of LT70.. but would have a guess that it's not that much better.. It depends on not only the drying method, but the quality and consistency of the fish used.. Provimi can vary quite a lot during a year, but it has always worked for me and a lot of bait companies
I now use LT94, amongst others, but whether it makes that much difference is down to a belief in nutritional theories... they do me OK.. and my friends who do a bit of bait science tend to agree.. but then....

Thank Pete much as I suspected, it was just that someone planted a seed of doubt in my mind.

lt94 28.50 tel 01963 362234

is LT for lower temperature and what is the 94 for? how is this lower temp achieved if so? what is the make up of this meal (majority), is it not possible to substitute this for something else at a reasonable cost? As living fairly close to a commercial fishing port (grimsby)(argh!) are there any other fishmeal producers willing to give an insight into the pro's and cons of the bait world of fishing?

It's the average digestibility

Hi All,

It's the average Pepsin digestibility, which unfortunately Carp haven't got so it bears no relation to it's digestibility (unless you consider trypsin at low temperature to be as effective at relaxing peptide bonds)in Carp.

Not too worry, Dr Kim Jauncey head of fish nutrution at the University of Stirling looked into which meals were most digestible in Carp and the conclusion he reached was that white fishmeal (provimi) was the most digestible at 90%.

This kind of makes the cost of LT94 a bit hard to swallow, if you are still interested in a low temperature fishmeal try SFP 70 Herring Meal also available at Marriages amongst others and costs only a couple of quid more than Provimi and it's Pepsin digestibility is 90-92%, at 2/3 the cost I for one will wear the 2%. The 70 relates to the % protein about the same as LT94. It is not a lower quality product.

If you are still hankering after LT94 make sure you use it with a sweetner or the fish might not eat it.

Cheers

Mark

Mark

"If you are still hankering after LT94 make sure you use it with a sweetner or the fish might not eat it."

Care to expand on that?

Cheers

BB

Nice post Mark, that puts the cat firmly amongst the pigeons. It doesnt help my tortured mind, one bit though.
What do I do, stick with my provimi or make the switch to lt meals?

I know what you mean Andy. I'm in the same boat mate!!
It seems to me the main reason for using LT meals over Provimi is the (slight?) increase in nutrients. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, what happens to these nutrients once they hit boiling water? I may be wrong but could any potential benifits be removed/changed by heat??? I would guess Provimi would also be affected by boiling to a lesser degree but like I say, I can only guess.
I'm sticking with the Provimi for now, more so because I've just got a couple of new sacks and seems a shame to waste it!!

Hi Mark..
Do you mean digestability or utilisation??
Sweetner?? never heard of that one mate.. [smile

Yep one thing that is for sure, is that I have a lot to learn. Not that I was ever under the illusion that I hadn't. My understanding of the relevant enzimes is virtualy nill. I dont think that stops me producing a good bait, but I do feel it makes perfecting it, that little bit more hit and miss.

Nice post Mark,i`ll give Marriages a bell on that herring meal although i`ve some provimi and crab and krill get through first.
Hydrolised meals then,i take it that this is another different type of fishmeal production process or is it a variation on a LT theme?

and LT fishmeals STINK!!

also

http://www.marriagefeeds.co.uk/

Nice one Lofty,thats one for the carp links page and favourites.

its not tha good actually, i pasted the link and then had a look, its worth a glance but better over the phone still at present,

Pete B, i might be e mailing you re - bait recipies again soon, i've absolutly caned single hookers to death over the last 18 months, time to stop being lazy and get rolling my own bait again, only this time i'm going to source a cheap compressor or else i will have fore arms like popeye!

Accessories, Parts & Tools

AIR COMPRESSORS REPAIRED, OVERHAULED AND FITTED NEW or RECONDITIONED SUPPLIED ALL PARTS SUPPLIED AND FITTED IMPORTS A SPECIALITY Tel: 08700 274592 email: leultd@freenetname.co.uk

Thats one to check out from Exchange & Mart
http://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/index.htm

cheers kev,

i have got a source for a cheap compressor, what i would need is the gun and what ever else is needed, i can get normal air tools cheaply from the same source but if its somthing unusuall then i doudt i could get it,

Read this Lofty.

Has all the info you need

Axe

No probs Lofty...

Hi All,

Butt Banger the main reason I suggested a sweetner should be used is that on one particularly hard water where an LT94 based bait was used it caught naff all until a sweetner was added, it then blitzed it.

Andy if your bait has a fair dose of soya I personally don't think you need to change, however I would consider blending the SFP70 with your Provimi at approx 40/60 respectively. Your right about not needing to know much about the metabolism of protein in carp to put a bait together, thats why there are so many bait companies ! A little extra cramming can put your bait into another league altogether, a great deal of the information you need is at your fingertips - the internet holds the torch while you do the digging !

Mr D. all the ingredients protein vitamin and mineral profiles are affected by our blanching them, but provimi allready comes nicely toasted so maybe it's least affected if there is any difference. the temperature reached at the centre of the bait rarely exceeds the critical 50 degrees so that is the least of your worries on the protein front if you are sensible and stick to the shortest boil you can get away with. The blanching does in general FUBAR any vitamins / Minerals. This 'toasting' could also make Provimi taste nice to fish. Also if you are adding egg albumin at any stage in any form to your bait you might as well flush the protein content down the toilet all fish get from bait is calories.

Pete sorry mate didn't mean to confuse the two, when refering to enzyme activity I was talking about digestibilty. when I refered to Kim Jaunceys' paper which was based on what came out of the fishes vent I am refering to utilisation or PER. I stand corrected.

Cheers

mark

There is no soya in my mix Mark. I do use maize gluten meal with the provimi, and because of that I decided that soya would not add a great deal to the mix. As I have stated my knowledge is limited, so as it stands I am not in a position to formulate a bait down to the last amino. I sort of throw it together in a semi educated way, working with a basic amino profile. I realy need to learn more about digestion and enzimes. My biggest problem is the fact that although I am by no means thick, I am not realy an academic type. This is a major draw back when trying to digest scientific papers. Its like when you started talking about peptide bonds and enzimes, I know the general gist of what you were talking about, but I am unable at this point in time to grasp the finer points. Perhaps I should find a site that deals with basic chemistry first, then at leasts I could understand all the lingo.

Chuck some Soya meal in the mix.. it will improve utilisation....
Mark.. why do you think that a sweetener improved the bait?? what sweetener was it??? Was it fished in a different area with a different pH/temperature or 'flavouring'... most interested....
Or are you doing a very good wind up and trying to confuse as many people as possible..

Thanks Pete. I take it that those slightly higher amino's make all the difference then. Or is there more to this than just amino profile?

Hi Pete,

I think the sweetener improved the bait on that water because the bait started to catch mate. I believe it was saccharin, I think the only difference was the improved catch rate from the addition of the sweetner.

I love a wind up mate but i'm not that cruel..... I'll give you a ring soon

Andy,

I think you are more than able to glean what you need to from any of the papers, you will certainly be able to learn as much as eminent academics like myself (not) .... it's guaranteed to hurt like hell for a while though at least until you give up in disgust with terminal brain ache.


Regards

Mark

I am glad you think so Mark I will give it a try. Common sence and comunication skills (even though my written English is poor) are two of my strong points, this can some times make me appear a little more intelegent than I actualy am.

I have just decided to start making my own bait's again,I have a lot more time on my hands this year.
I have ben reading this thread and it has become obvious there are some people who have a far better understanding of bait formulation than I do so I have a couple of questions for any bait buffs out there,any help would be greatly appreciated.
Will the bait gain anything from having more than one kind of fishmeal?
Would it be better to use a hyrdrolised fishmeal?
As i understand it,could be wrong,fishmeals contain all of the essential amino acid's that carp require,therefore is it worth adding additional amino blends ie: nutramino or somthing along those lines.

Hi Mark, that has put my mind at rest regarding boiling the 'goodness' out of my bait. I do have a bit of a problem though.... I boil 18mm baits for 3 mins but they are still a bit too soft for hookbaits (for my liking anyway) and going very soft if in the water any longer that 8 hours. Fine for freebies as they will break down nicely. The only way I have found to get over this is to boil a handfull for 5 mins or so making them more suitalbe for hook baits..... unless anyone has any other tips or ideas? Maybe air drying the hookbaits would be another option??

Andy, I'm also searching for answers at the moment and all I have achieved so far is to give myself a nasty headache!! If you find any 'easy to understand' info, let me know..... I will do the same for you if I find anything.

theres something you guy`s dont seem to be mentioning and that is taste!
different meals have different tastes and when you combine say capelin and sardine/anchovy with provimi 66 you get a better all round tasting bait than say stuffing it full of LT 94 and thats the only fishmeal you use!!
if bait was only about amino`s and digestability then tigers by rights shouldnt catch a thing and tutti fruity`s on a nutritional basis wouldn`t either ????
p.s mr D if you use a small amount of egg albumen in with your hookbaits this will harden them up nicely and cut down boiling time if you want to keep egg content to a minimum you could incorporate 30 mesh acid casein to your mix to get a harder bait without the egg albumen.

"different meals have different tastes and when you combine say capelin and sardine/anchovy with provimi 66 you get a better all round tasting bait than say stuffing it full of LT 94 and thats the only fishmeal you use!! "

Kacey - how do you know that you get a better all round TASTE?I'm not saying that a blend of fishmeals is more/less effective (because effective it clearly is) but I'm interested in how you arrive at the conclusion that the TASTE is better?

I understand that krill meal (and other krill derivatives) are added to many commercial fish feeds to improve palatibility and have used this with some success.I also have a vague recollection that sardine/anchovy meal has shown demonstrable attractiveness over other standard fishmeals.I am presently trying to source a supply of liquid krill (or liquid krill hydroslate) but with little sucess to date as it generally comes in enormous barrels from abroad and nobody wants to send me a few litres to have a play with - if anyone can point me in the right direction here PM / e-mail me.Strikes me as being something that's been overlooked by the bait industry so far!!

With regard to fishmeals turning soft (especially after thawing) - I have found that an inclusion rate of 5% bloodmeal in the mix makes for a much firmer bait and much shorter boiling times to achieve the required firmness......another ingredient which appears to be overlooked.It also darkens a bait to a nice chocolate brown which may be an added benefit if you like your baits nice and dark.It's also a lot cheaper than egg-albumen and has an amazing amino profile.

Just some garbled thoughts.

BB

Pete B

You say that adding soya meal to a bait improves utilisation. Do the levels of soya meal matter? Also I have got hold of some soya oil, will this improve utilisation in the same way as a soya meal.

Cheers

Mr.D...personally I use egg albumin to shorten the boiling time and then air dry a handful of these until rock hard, using them specifically as hookers.

However, since reading Mark McKennas comment about egg albumin and flushing the protein content I'm now wondering wether the egg albumin is such a good idea.

Mark, I wonder if you would elaborate on the reason for your comment regarding egg albumin, if I read you correctly ? it buggers the protein content...have I been taking the edge off what is a good bait, but one that without the albumin could be a supreme bait?, catching more than it already does????.

BB...can you advise a source for Blood Meal please M8....cheers..

Dan

I buy mine locally from a seed merchant but I know that Quality Baits do it.From memory it's £3 a kilo.At 5% of your base mix you can boil for 30 seconds and still get 14mm baits to be hard enough to fish with.If you play aroung with levels/boiling times you can get a nice "m-tech effect" paste middle and hard outer.Well worth a dabble.

PM me your address and I'll stick you 8oz or so in the post if I've got any left so you can have a play.

Cheers

BB

B.B in reply to your question i taste any bait i make or use and this is how i gauge the taste of a bait unless there is another way i haven`t thought of yet
there are so many dodgy tasting additives out there at the moment the only way to test them is to put em in your gob
imo water craft is the most important part of carping you can have the best bait in the world but if you don`t put it where they will have it you wont catch didly squat !!!!!
p.s B B you are spot on blood meal or red cells are good hardeners as well as egg albumin and acid casein 30 mesh there is another that is very hard to get hold of and that is blood albumin!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kacey

I bet your missus loves that!!

Quality baits also sell blood albumen too by the way.

Cheers

BB

i use aqua fresh so its not a problem

Butt Banger, I know what Kacey means.... I have used sardine/anchovy as well as Provimi with basiclly the rest of the ingredients being the same. I have to say, the bait made with the sardine/anchovy tasted a lot better than the one with the provimi. It may taste better to us but I'm not sure Mr Carp would recognise the same differences. Maybe they do?

Like the bloodmeal tip for firmer bait by the way!!

Mark,
I would also be interested to know what egg albumin does to a bait...... Keep it simple though please!!!!

Hi Dan,

Egg albumin in hookbaits is not a problem because the fish don't get to eat it. The attractors are locked in a bit more in a bait made with eggs so you may want to think about increasing them slightly in your hookers.

Egg albumin does not ruin the protein content the fish will pick up on the food signal but will not be able to digest it. There will be a paper on this shortly but as it hasn't been published yet I don't want to upset anybody by saying any more at the moment.

There are many things we can use to re create the gelling effect of eggs, you will have to work out the combination which produces the desired skin on your bait as i have found that it is not as simple as just replacing the egg albumin with one product. In fact it took me all winter to arrive at a solution which works for me.

I am also a big fan of Krill in bait, quite apart from it's nutritional and texture / taste enhancing qualities it is also a very effective pH buffer in fact I would say that that is probably one of it's greatest attributes in relation to it's inclusion in a carp bait.

There has been a fair bit of discussion on taste on here and i think it is possible to get very confused on this Kevin Haddocks once said something like don't ever get Human taste confused with that of a Carp and I agree. My own bait smells gorgeous take a bite and it tastes gorgeous until the enzymes attack the protein on your tongue and it tastes like [censored]. The fish eat it with gusto though as they do bloodworm and aquatic snails etc. all of which would seem fairly unpalatable to the average english carper (the french lads could probably manage it with a dash of garlic).

let the fish / result determine the conclusion on atractiveness I personally think that the combination of certain fishmeals effectiveness has more to do with an improved AA profile and fish being unable to identify an element of the base mix it has associated with danger in the past.

Cheers

Mark

Processed Soya oil does diddly squat mate, just a lipid source... 5% Soya meal...
Taste... whose? yours?? how much silt do you eat guys?? this is totally irrelevant....You are comparing a Carp with a human.. can you detect a dissolved substance at 1:100000... thought not.... therefore, in this respect a carp is more advanced...
'Taste' as we think of it has no place in carp baits.......

BB, have sent PM...cheers Dan

sorry couldn`t disagree more with you on that one pete B!
milk protein baits have good AA profiles and contain many beneficial vitamins and minerals to carp but they are absolutely bland in taste mostly and if you dont put taste enhancers, sweeteners etc with them to liven up the taste you wont catch much at all on them to bitter for mr cypry me thinks!!!!
there are obviously many additives that taste good to carp but can be vile to our taste buds, but carp take a chance every time they feed on anglers baits! why is this because in my opinion they enjoy a food source that is alien to their enviroment that TASTES totally different to anything they can source naturally,and they take a chance on capture everytime they do it!!!!!!!!!

Read you post again Kacey1... you contradict yourself!!

"milk protein baits have good AA profiles and contain many beneficial vitamins and minerals to carp but they are absolutely bland in taste mostly and if you dont put taste enhancers, sweeteners etc with them to liven up the taste you wont catch much at all on them to bitter for mr cypry me thinks!!!! "
Bland baits aren't bitter.. bland is bland mate.... Milks have an amino profile, but how much a carp can utilise it is up for discussion.. which milks?? have you looked at first limiting amino?? does the free release of aminos induce feeding?? if so, which aminos and ae they released from the milk you are using??
You are confusing taste with attraction.. many of these additives 'attract' carp, but because of a signal given out, be that pH or whatever.. and that includes 'sweeteners'
As an aside.. ever 'tasted' black silt... carp feed in it, and they take lots into their mouths.. if they relied on 'taste' as we know it, don't you think they would chuck up???
Interesting discussion mate...

well firstly pete i think you will find that hydrolysis in milk proteins causes them to taste bitter via peptides and individually these milk proteins ie:caseins,lactalbumin,whey proteins etc
are bland in taste so me thinks i haven`t contradicted me self at all
i wasn`t refering to a milk protein bait i was using just milk protein baits in general!!!
there is no evidence to my knowledge that carp can`t taste the difference between capelin meal from sardine and anchovy meal or any other fishmeal?!!
so it is my opinion that to incorporate different fishmeals into a basemix will improve the overall TASTE of a bait as well as the AA profile which in my mind helps to keep carp eating my baits....
and as you state pete carp FEED IN SILT not on it and dont actually digest it intentionally
ive dropped plenty of sausage rolls on the floor(nice and muddy) while fishing and picked em up and eaten them and not chucked up they have been a bit gritty but waste not want not

Kacey if you split your fish meals say 50/50 it does not follow that you will improve your bait. If one of the fish meals is more digestable than the other you may as well go 100% with that meal. It isnt simply a case of getting as many aminos as you can crammed into a bait, there has to be suitable amounts of all the indispensable amino acid, or much of the protien content can't be utilised.

you guy`s seem to only look at digestability and everything has to be based on the AA profile but im telling you that carp taste the difference between fishmeals!
if they couldn`t why would some pellet feed producers add certain meals to make them more pallatable to the fish when eating?????
lets just agree to disagree